I am quite pesimistic about this game...

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Yrfin
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Yrfin » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:34 pm

The pessimist - means the informed realist.
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by kondi754 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:43 pm

Rudankort wrote:Thanks for your pessimism guys, keep it coming. It motivates me even more to make a great game and prove you all wrong. :)

Special thanks to KeldorKatarn for insightful posts. I don't agree with certain points, but at least you've supported your position with arguments. I'll try to reply in more detail later.
But I believe in you, argue with them here ... :D
And BTW I believe that Panzer General 3D was unappreciated game, it wasn't a failure. This game met with dogmatically minded players who rejected all innovations.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by bebro » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:50 pm

I loved PzC and modded it extensively. If I had the time I'd still do it. I for one look forward to PzC 2.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by paxuni » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:51 pm

same here love PzC and will definitely spend hours and PzC2

captainjack
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by captainjack » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:48 pm

3d in itself isn't necessarily bad, but the concerns about slow response times, look and feel, and ability to mod are understandable, based on experience of other games. In many cases, problems arose because the 3d aspect was given priority over more important things like playability, speed of response. The reputation of 3d versions of existing games also suffered because 3d image quality improved rapidly, making older 3d icons look dated very quickly. 2d has the benefit that it is supposed to be stylised and people are a bit more forgiving.

A similar thing happened in cinema when computer graphics first became available - film makers were so star struck on special effects, they forgot about plot, dialogue and casting, so we had a few years of awful films until the technology improved and once again took a back seat to the things that mattered. There were also some decent films where what had been leading edge effects rapidly started to look clunky.

None of this means that 3d is inherently bad, just that it has been over-sold in the past, and often at the expense of things that mattered more. If Panzer Corps 2 has 3d graphics, good gameplay, works on many platforms and can be modded by a reasonably wide range of people, it should last a long time. Despite some reservations (principally about moddability), I'm looking forwards to trying it. Rudankort has a pretty good track record through PGF and Panzer Corps, which both lasted pretty well, so we should be getting something good.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Shrike » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:47 am

Seriously, give Rudankort a chance people :-) He's already made 2 Panzer General clones with improved gameplay, so why all the fuss about a 3D version? How can anyone complain about getting eye candy on top? Using 3D doesn't automagically make a game bad. Have a look at Sanctus Reach if you want a very recent 3D tactical game done right. I for one hope that with the Unreal 4 engine both modding and the multiplayer aspect get a huge boost, because let's face it: the PBEM limitations are becoming a serious anachronism. On top of that, the Unreal 4 engine has a turn based toolkit so modders take note ;-) I trust building campaigns will not be any more difficult in 3D than it is in 2D.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by KeldorKatarn » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:57 am

Rudankort wrote:Thanks for your pessimism guys, keep it coming. It motivates me even more to make a great game and prove you all wrong. :)

Special thanks to KeldorKatarn for insightful posts. I don't agree with certain points, but at least you've supported your position with arguments. I'll try to reply in more detail later.
Oh believe me I'm not in the lease pessimistic because you are aboard. I'm just very worried because of the time and budget involved in making what you plan to do. And I thought I'd offer my ideas on how to do things with maximum result and less of a massive change and work required.

I offered my personal experience in the industry and what I think might be mistakes and what should be the focus. I'm the last guy to make a final judgement before I see any real footage of the product, which so far we haven't. (Btw adressed at the marketing department... the current landscape of gamers does NOT react all too well to trailers or even teasers that have zero gameplay footage in them unless you're Star Wars the Old Republic and put out cinematic trailers that tell a story. If I was Slitherine I'd move away from this stuff. I know a LOT of instances where gameplay footage lacking trailers turned people off or had them incredibly worried about a product. I know there probably isn't any footage around at the moment to show but any future real trailers should have at least 50% gameplay in them. Just my 2 cents.
Panzer Corps - Dossier Tool - http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=39151
Epic Chronological Let's Play - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLb_qLVfViPTbD7C7gN8cVOxG_mEgDYO91

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Kerensky » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:26 am

Damn I just got here and it looks like the game is already ruined. I mean come on, why is the tagline 'a new story begins'? This isn't an RPG, it's a strategy game. Time to give up and go straight to Panzer Corps 3 guys.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Hansstory » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:08 am

LOL, someone here has all the answers. Sounds like he should be running the show...if talk was all that was needed. :)

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by codman » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:10 pm

Always easy to make suggestions but a switch to allow the player to go from 2D to 3D in the game options might do the trick. No need to jump during a game or campaign to simplify the programming if such a thing is possible. Each player will probably have a slightly platform to play on and allowing them to tweak the setting to match their needs would be a plus.

In my case the box I use to play Panzer Corps can't run Order of Battle as the built in graphics card can't hack it. Doubt I rebuild the box for any game so the experiments with lower prestige levels continue...

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Musketeer » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:16 pm

codman wrote:Always easy to make suggestions but a switch to allow the player to go from 2D to 3D in the game options might do the trick. No need to jump during a game or campaign to simplify the programming if such a thing is possible. Each player will probably have a slightly platform to play on and allowing them to tweak the setting to match their needs would be a plus.

In my case the box I use to play Panzer Corps can't run Order of Battle as the built in graphics card can't hack it. Doubt I rebuild the box for any game so the experiments with lower prestige levels continue...
What do you expect , 3D in PC2 lowers specs requirements?

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Cablenexus » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:40 am

Little late to the party but the announcement for PC2 received me today by a Steam announcement.

I'm looking forward to it and I can understand the critisism from the current wargame players. Maybe it's good to name a few turn based strategygames that made use from Unreal technology in the last few years.
There are a few that are worth to name and my advice for the team is to watch the Steam forums for those games to find the pros and cons of those games named by players.
Heroes of Might and Magic VII, Warmachine Tactics and XCom2 are all made in Unreal instead of Unity and they all suffer from the same issues. Mostly performance issues on release, bugs and very clunky interfaces.

But...

All of those games proof that making a turn based strategy game in Unreal engine is possible when done right.
Xcom2's interface is done well, The units in Warmachine Tactics are extremely detailed and the Might and Magic VII proofs it's possible to have a 2D game converted to a 3D engine without "dumbing down" the gameplay. It has huge maps, a random map generator, all old factions and even more.

Personally my worries are mostly based on how the devteam will manage to convert a very clean and fine UI as in PC1 into the clunky way Unreal engine present interface elements on screen.
The detail for unit models, the AI, the mod possibilities and the gameplay features are less of a concern for me.

I'm optimistic since I understand the need for 3D games for the new generation of players. My younger nephew doesn't even touch a game when not 3D.
Also I encourage every dev to make projects that seems impossible at first and proof us wrong. The genre is in real need of an update and Xcom2 is one of the most popular TBS games on the market.
It is possible to make a great PC2 game in the Unreal engine but it will be a long road! Good luck!

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Kerensky » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:59 am

Rudankort wrote:Thanks for your pessimism guys, keep it coming. It motivates me even more to make a great game and prove you all wrong. :)
Image

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Musketeer » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:28 am

If you disgust old 2D players with new 3D engine what is the point?

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by ptje63 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:04 am

nikivdd wrote:
Rudankort wrote:3D graphics is not necessarily the main selling point (although it can be for some people), but we understood it was the most controversial, and we wanted to set the expectations straight from the very beginning.
When i hear 3D, perhaps there will be a meaning to front and rear armor of a unit after all. A combat outcome that will depend on the position of the units firing at eachother.
I personally dont think the scale of the hexes allows such minute positioning...

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by IttoOgami » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:16 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Rudankort wrote:Thanks for your pessimism guys, keep it coming. It motivates me even more to make a great game and prove you all wrong. :)

Special thanks to KeldorKatarn for insightful posts. I don't agree with certain points, but at least you've supported your position with arguments. I'll try to reply in more detail later.
But I believe in you, argue with them here ... :D
And BTW I believe that Panzer General 3D was unappreciated game, it wasn't a failure. This game met with dogmatically minded players who rejected all innovations.
For me it was a disappointment, and not because of 3D. The latter may have contributed to the problems, I don't know how to proper explain it... unlike 2D games, 3D have the atmospherical problem to display big battles. In games like them you do not have much units (I think in PG IIID you could not get more than 15-20), and they appear even smaller in 3D, at least for me. Was the same in OOB for me.
In a way, PG IIID was innovative; at least when it came out in 1999 or so, there was IMO no other turn-based game with 3D graphics around. But they overstepped it, in an all style, no substance way for me. I think the major issue were the small numbers of units on the maps. That changed totally the play style. No longer you had to probe frontlines and breakthrough. The enemy units were scrambled over the map and you had more a seek and destroy approach, also you had ridiculous movement points, as I remember it. I also don't know if terrain played any role in PG IIID, except cities.

BTW: I am not totally against 3D. I think, for example, Shattered Union was an ok 3D turn based strategy game.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Schweinewitz » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:58 pm

Although I'm not enthusiastic about 3D stuff too (for example I'm sceptical about Unity of Command 2 while I really love UoC's original 2D style) I think that it's nonsensical to dismiss PC2's focus on 3D graphics altogether before we have seen any screenshots or ingame footage. I guess that Rudankort and his team are experienced enough to know exactely what they are doing. Just relax and wait for more info* on the game.

---
* So PC2 will be a WW2 themed game - again. It would be very interesting to know how the devs are going to present an old story that has been told so/too many times before in a new and refreshing way. (I cannot say how often I have invaded Poland, will I have to do that again in PC2?) - Will there be - for the sake of variety and concerning the replay value - multiple path campaigns? - What is the unit size - regimental or bataillon? Etc. etc. :wink:

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Kerensky » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:41 am

Talking to one of my friends, he actually had this to say:

Image

There's definitely going to be no pleasing everyone on this, some people want the polar opposite of others. lol

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by hugh2711 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:26 pm

2 turn based examples: M.A.X. ( awesome) - M.A.X. 2 ('3D', rubbish and harder to look at)
Panzer general - Panzer general 3D (ditto)

Producing a 3D version as with the above games is a way of milking your fans. It produces an initial big cash flow as the fans buy the new one based on how good the first one was. The problem with eye candy is it loses its appeal after a while its initial sensory input like a drug loses its impact. The problem is then that it stops all development and interest in the origional as well as the new one when the eye candy effect wears off.

Its quite easy to see in the forums what people want (other than a short term milking). If you look in the forums the threads with the most and longest interest and praise are the threads about games with enormous/BIG maps e.g. battlefield europe, soviet storm, war of the world. It is also easy to see what they dont want. If you look at the AAR's you will find lots of AAR's of the early DLC's but even the most enthusiatic and competant fans do a lot LESS AAR's of the later ones. This is because they are tiny maps with so many units there is no room for any subtlety, they are just much less interesting. Turn off the fog of war in DLC 45east and have a look. The big popular maps have a very low enemy units to space ratio. So even battlefield europe with its many hundreds of enemy units has great flexibility because the ratio of space to units is low and makes it interesting and capable of great subtlety. Of course if you read the scenario design sub forum it becomes obvious that one of the biggest problems is the lack/limit of zones for these big scenarios. But then of course there are many threads about improving the origional game.

Of course If the sequel is really as good as if not better than the origional there would be the option to turn the eye candy OFF. This of course would actually help the sales as well as alot of grown ups are not going to get a new laptop/computer just to play a game wth more demanding graphics but not gameplay. The option to turm the eye candy OFF would also show a long term committment to the game not milking.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by proline » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:20 am

Rudankort wrote:Thanks for your pessimism guys, keep it coming. It motivates me even more to make a great game and prove you all wrong. :)

Special thanks to KeldorKatarn for insightful posts. I don't agree with certain points, but at least you've supported your position with arguments. I'll try to reply in more detail later.
As a fan since 1997, I'm just so disappointed. The press release I wanted to see was:

-Higher resolution 2D artwork that looks good on retina displays
-Smarter AI
-iPad Pro support (or even Mac support!)
-Improved naval combat and Pacific campaigns
-Branched grand campaign
-Improved recon units

What I got was:

-3D
-Various posts saying 3D is not the main feature, even though 3D actually is the first and only announced feature
-iPad support will come late or not at all

Best of luck to you I guess. You won't see me though, because I don't have a PC. PzC was actually fun to play in bed or on airplanes on the iPad. Too bad the iPad was always second class.

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