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Germans always lose

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:51 pm
by tonyUK
In PC 1 Germans always end up retreating back to Germany. I found this despite getting a small
win at Stalingrad. Does this still happen in PC 2 or can Germany actually win the war. If not, then what
is the point of this game.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:13 pm
by JaM2013
sometimes journey is the reward...

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:17 pm
by Rudankort
tonyUK wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:51 pm
In PC 1 Germans always end up retreating back to Germany. I found this despite getting a small
win at Stalingrad. Does this still happen in PC 2 or can Germany actually win the war. If not, then what
is the point of this game.
Yes, in Panzer Corps 2 the germans can win the war. But then again, in Panzer Corps vanilla campaign they also could.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:21 pm
by tonyUK
Thanks, that's a good plus point for the game.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:44 pm
by prestidigitation
It's pretty silly that they can win the war. It'd make more sense to have them aiming for a better than historical outcome. That's probably set in stone at this point though.

It'd be kinda neat to see some Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa style moral dilemmas pop up from time to time instead of pure briefings. Ex halfway through the mission, one of your units captures a town and you get a report of war crimes with option to pay req to make amends or ignore it. Can you fight the war and keep your integrity intact or will you sacrifice everything to the Nazi cause? I especially liked the war crimes tribunal bit at the end of DCB.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:15 pm
by nexusno2000
It's a hex-based turn-based strategy game. Don't try to make it anything else.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:35 pm
by prestidigitation
And? Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa is also a hex based strategy game (and a very good one) that happens to also ask the player to get involved with some of the actual decisions made by Nazi leaders during the war.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:41 am
by Retributarr
Rudankort wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:17 pm
tonyUK wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:51 pm
In PC 1 Germans always end up retreating back to Germany. I found this despite getting a small
win at Stalingrad. Does this still happen in PC 2 or can Germany actually win the war. If not, then what
is the point of this game.
Yes, in Panzer Corps 2 the germans can win the war. But then again, in Panzer Corps vanilla campaign they also could.
That's comforting to hear!, ...even though I would have...at that time period...if I was there...have violently revulsed at their achieving any mentionable victory during WWII.

It is good to find out that a German Victory is possible...as it gives more incentive for the player to either...make it happen...or make sure to direct more efforts to prevent its actualization!.

However...in reality...that German Victory would have been extremely difficult to achieve. First!...they had a "Severe Fuel Crises"...which by itself...alone could seal their doom!. Unless???...they were able to capture and activate the Oil-Fields and Refineries in the Caucasus!.

Second, they were waging a 2-Front War...which was overwhelming their resources in manpower and equipment. There are perhaps more than a few ways that they could possibly have at least achieved a partial victory to start with...by getting the Americans and British out of the war.

```An 'Axis' victory by means of success of/at 'The Battle Of Britain'...would surely have gone a long way towards achieving a means towards that goal.

```The planned for, but never completed.. Sänger Silverbird _ Orbital Bomber Project', could have removed the western allies from the war, by means of using Atomic Bombs on Washington and New York. That was planned for, ...but for various reasons...was not able to reach completion as an operational possibility.

```Just north of 'Stavelot' in Belgium...during the 'Battle of the Bulge', "Joachim Peiper"...nearly took the massive "American Fuel Supply Dump" ,which just may have tipped the balance of the situation on the Western Front...by splitting the American and British Forces, as well as isolating the Americans from their source of supply by taking the port of Antwerp. That possibly could have achieved some kind of settlement that could have ended the Western Allies involvement,...thereby now releasing all the Western German Forces to be re-directed towards the Eastern Front.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:46 am
by proline
Rudankort wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:17 pm
tonyUK wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:51 pm
In PC 1 Germans always end up retreating back to Germany. I found this despite getting a small
win at Stalingrad. Does this still happen in PC 2 or can Germany actually win the war. If not, then what
is the point of this game.
Yes, in Panzer Corps 2 the germans can win the war. But then again, in Panzer Corps vanilla campaign they also could.
The Germans could also win in Sealion Corps, Soviet Corps, US Corps, Afrika Corps, and Allied Corps. The only place they couldn't win is the grand campaign.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am
by nexusno2000
prestidigitation wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:35 pm
And? Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa is also a hex based strategy game (and a very good one) that happens to also ask the player to get involved with some of the actual decisions made by Nazi leaders during the war.
And... no. Not even 1% interested.

I want to move pixel-tanks that go pew-pew, not pretend I kill millions of Jews.

What an abhorrent idea.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:04 pm
by prestidigitation
nexusno2000 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am
prestidigitation wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:35 pm
And? Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa is also a hex based strategy game (and a very good one) that happens to also ask the player to get involved with some of the actual decisions made by Nazi leaders during the war.
And... no. Not even 1% interested.

I want to move pixel-tanks that go pew-pew, not pretend I kill millions of Jews.

What an abhorrent idea.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/4545 ... arbarossa/

Neat straw man, but not what I suggested as anyone who played the game would know.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:13 pm
by nexusno2000
prestidigitation wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:04 pm
nexusno2000 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am
prestidigitation wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:35 pm
And? Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa is also a hex based strategy game (and a very good one) that happens to also ask the player to get involved with some of the actual decisions made by Nazi leaders during the war.
And... no. Not even 1% interested.

I want to move pixel-tanks that go pew-pew, not pretend I kill millions of Jews.

What an abhorrent idea.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/4545 ... arbarossa/

Neat straw man, but not what I suggested as anyone who played the game would know.
It's called exaggerating to make a point.

And what is the point really?

So I get an option where I can decide if I want to be a good Nazi or not? Am I supposed to feel better by declaring I'm not really a Holocaust proponent? How does that affect me the game? Do I get dismissed and sent to a camp?

But all other things aside: What does this have to do with turn-based strategy of the Panzer General/Panzer Corps kind? How does it make the game better and more fun?

It doesn't is my answer. It would only detract from the experience. And no doubt create unwanted and unneeded controversy.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:36 pm
by prestidigitation
nexusno2000 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:13 pm
prestidigitation wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:04 pm
nexusno2000 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am


And... no. Not even 1% interested.

I want to move pixel-tanks that go pew-pew, not pretend I kill millions of Jews.

What an abhorrent idea.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/4545 ... arbarossa/

Neat straw man, but not what I suggested as anyone who played the game would know.
It's called exaggerating to make a point.

And what is the point really?

So I get an option where I can decide if I want to be a good Nazi or not? Am I supposed to feel better by declaring I'm not really a Holocaust proponent? How does that affect me the game? Do I get dismissed and sent to a camp?

But all other things aside: What does this have to do with turn-based strategy of the Panzer General/Panzer Corps kind? How does it make the game better and more fun?

It doesn't is my answer. It would only detract from the experience. And no doubt create unwanted and unneeded controversy.
Since reading the steam page was too much, here's a review. Note lack of controversy : https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/1 ... a-preview/

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:16 am
by Retributarr
In addition...to previous presentation "on how the German's may have achieved final victory!:

I missed mentioning...that...if "MOSCAU"..was captured...as originally planned, that...that also...would/could have been a 'Major-Game-Changer'

Of course...had Moscow had been taken that early in the war, that result...could also have greatly interested the 'Japanese'...into expanding into Russia...probably then not being too concerned with the U.S. Oil Embargo...as now the Japanese could themselves...aim to take the Caucasus OilFields for themselves???.

This isn't all there is for ideas of this kind, but even so...I will just mention one more!.

Rommel wanted the Panzer Divisions located close to the beaches to repulse an Allied Invasion...when it would eventually take place. Of Course Hitler over-ruled him?. That plan implementation...just may also have had a decisive effect?.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:01 pm
by George_Parr
Retributarr wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:16 am
In addition...to previous presentation "on how the German's may have achieved final victory!:

I missed mentioning...that...if "MOSCAU"..was captured...as originally planned, that...that also...would/could have been a 'Major-Game-Changer'

Of course...had Moscow had been taken that early in the war, that result...could also have greatly interested the 'Japanese'...into expanding into Russia...probably then not being too concerned with the U.S. Oil Embargo...as now the Japanese could themselves...aim to take the Caucasus OilFields for themselves???.

This isn't all there is for ideas of this kind, but even so...I will just mention one more!.

Rommel wanted the Panzer Divisions located close to the beaches to repulse an Allied Invasion...when it would eventually take place. Of Course Hitler over-ruled him?. That plan implementation...just may also have had a decisive effect?.
The Caucasus wasn't remotely close to what Japan could have reached. Nor would they ever have been able to get the oil from the Caucasus back to Japan. That being said, Japan going after the Soviet Union once it became obvious that it was falling apart definately could have been an option. After all, who doesn't like to take something for free?

The defensive setup in France wasn't really about Hitler vs. Rommel, it was about von Rundstedt and Rommel. Rommel thought that he needed the forces right at the beaches,because having the troops further back would have meant they had to travel to the coast first, which is rather deadly when the enemy has complete air superiority. He was completely right with that. But at the same time, von Rundstedt was also completely right that if you put your mobile reserves at the beaches, you either have them spread out over a vast territory, leaving them too weak against any attack and causing the same issue of moving the remaining forces there, or you put them all in one place and then have nothing to react with if the enemy lands elsewhere. There really was no proper solution to the question. It was an impossible scenario to deal with.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:49 pm
by Retributarr
George_Parr wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:01 pm
Retributarr wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:16 am
In addition...to previous presentation "on how the German's may have achieved final victory!:

I missed mentioning...that...if "MOSCAU"..was captured...as originally planned, that...that also...would/could have been a 'Major-Game-Changer'

Of course...had Moscow had been taken that early in the war, that result...could also have greatly interested the 'Japanese'...into expanding into Russia...probably then not being too concerned with the U.S. Oil Embargo...as now the Japanese could themselves...aim to take the Caucasus OilFields for themselves???.

This isn't all there is for ideas of this kind, but even so...I will just mention one more!.

Rommel wanted the Panzer Divisions located close to the beaches to repulse an Allied Invasion...when it would eventually take place. Of Course Hitler over-ruled him?. That plan implementation...just may also have had a decisive effect?.
The Caucasus wasn't remotely close to what Japan could have reached. Nor would they ever have been able to get the oil from the Caucasus back to Japan. That being said, Japan going after the Soviet Union once it became obvious that it was falling apart definately could have been an option. After all, who doesn't like to take something for free?

The defensive setup in France wasn't really about Hitler vs. Rommel, it was about von Rundstedt and Rommel. Rommel thought that he needed the forces right at the beaches,because having the troops further back would have meant they had to travel to the coast first, which is rather deadly when the enemy has complete air superiority. He was completely right with that. But at the same time, von Rundstedt was also completely right that if you put your mobile reserves at the beaches, you either have them spread out over a vast territory, leaving them too weak against any attack and causing the same issue of moving the remaining forces there, or you put them all in one place and then have nothing to react with if the enemy lands elsewhere. There really was no proper solution to the question. It was an impossible scenario to deal with.
Your Wrong!...this posting and in also the previous posting!...'in what universe do you come from'???.

In the Previous posting about the German main incursion into the Caucasus...I just brought to attention...the main thrust/argument of the effort to do so...I wasn't going to do a 2000 page (Leo Tolstoys _ War and Peace Essay - To explain the OBVIOUS )... describing every other "minute detail and nuance" that was necessary for that effort to work!. Such as...having Obviously...a Screening Force to protect the incursion into the Caucasus. I thought that...that was an 'Elementary Basic' that should be understood without having to mention it in excruciating detail!. As far as the 'Argument' for the inability of the Germans to get production out of those 'Oil-Fields, well...your assertion...that the Germans were there for an Aeon (indefinitely long period of time ) and were 'Unable' to get any
meaningful production output from Miakop and Grozny has some truth, however...they did have the capability to make those Oil Fields productive...but were unable to for reasons im not going to go into right now.

The "JAPANESE":
The Japanese were well on their way into going into 'INDIA' (The Allies had a terrible/difficult time stopping the Japanese...they just managed to barely get that job done)...from there, on the western shores of 'INDIA'...it wasn't too far to make it to the Caucasus.

Of couse...I'm speaking "HYPOTHETICAL", in other words...something that could have possibly taken place.

Remove the 'Blinders' from your eyes,...so that you can start to see normally...instead of just using 'Tunnel-Vision'.

Re: Germans always lose

Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:52 pm
by Patrick Ward
Gentlemen,

Conversations, reasoned discussions and disagreements are ok, but some of you have already been warned about the nature and tone of your posts.

I know English is a second language for some and so the nuances can often be missed, and it seems to be made more difficult by the whole acting-like-a-mature-grown-up thing being really quite difficult. We get that.
But you're going to have to try really, really hard because you're wasting our time, ruining the forum for many others and, since we don't have a naughty step, are very close to being banned.

I'm locking this thread.

Pat