PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

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brettwjohnson
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PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by brettwjohnson » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:01 pm

OK - Basic question...

What is new/different about this game? How does it compare with PC1 and/or PG2 (or the 3D successor PG: Scorched Earth)

Looking at the screenshots it appears:
1) 3D vs 2D
2) The player gets certain "traits" (both positive & negative) that affects the game play (this is a *really* good feature, that (sort of) premiered in the original Fantasy General, where the player picked a persona w/ special abilities. I wish the new FG2 had this...)

So what else is new/different? Why should I buy this? I've got copies of every SSI 5 star game ever made, so I know I'm your target audience...

The original PG: Scorched Earth (which was excellent), had an interesting promotion system for unit commanders that gave them cool new abilities as they advanced from 1 star to 10 star.

Honestly if you told me it's a remake of PG:Scorched Earth, updated to today's tech, I would buy it in a heartbeat... :>

dalfrede
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by dalfrede » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:21 am

The main game play differences are: support fire, deployment slots, overstrengthing, air basing, infantry base strength, entrenchment affects,and recon support.

AT provides support fire against hard targets.
Overstrength is a deployment option, independent of experience.
Each unit has a prestige cost and a 'slot' cost. A Pz3E takes 3 slots, a TigerI 7 slots. IE for the same slot cost you can use 3 TigerIs or 7 Pz3Es.
Each aircraft returns to base at end of opponents turn.
Infantry has a base strength of 15, not 10 like the other unit types.
Entrenchment affects combat differently from PzC, this is an infantry vs infantry issue.
Recon has combat effects not in PzC.

The game adds a number of player options. Which may be overwhelming when one starts playing.
These options allow one to replay the campaign with vastly different styled armies each time.
The base campaign includes historical paths and fictional paths.
It is possible to play the full campaign from Poland to the USA, or from Poland to Berlin, without replaying a single scenario between the two. You would still have a number of scenarios you have not played yet [~20(?)].

So PzC2 has a lot of replay potential.

If you like playing with games as much as you like playing games,
this is the game for you.[This may not be a good thing for everyone].
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

Retributarr
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Retributarr » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:37 am

"dalfrede:"

'dalfrede;... what a 'First-Class' exquisitely detailed break-down and explanation of this Game-Series you have given!. Thanks for your diligent effort.

I have thoroughly enjoyed playing Panzer General, PanzerCorps and now finally will get to delve into PanzeCorps2... with the knowledge that rarely will 2-Games be exactly the same!.

Kerensky
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Kerensky » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:03 am

dalfrede wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:21 am
The main game play differences are: support fire, deployment slots, overstrengthing, air basing, infantry base strength, entrenchment affects,and recon support.

AT provides support fire against hard targets.
Overstrength is a deployment option, independent of experience.
Each unit has a prestige cost and a 'slot' cost. A Pz3E takes 3 slots, a TigerI 7 slots. IE for the same slot cost you can use 3 TigerIs or 7 Pz3Es.
Each aircraft returns to base at end of opponents turn.
Infantry has a base strength of 15, not 10 like the other unit types.
Entrenchment affects combat differently from PzC, this is an infantry vs infantry issue.
Recon has combat effects not in PzC.

The game adds a number of player options. Which may be overwhelming when one starts playing.
These options allow one to replay the campaign with vastly different styled armies each time.
The base campaign includes historical paths and fictional paths.
It is possible to play the full campaign from Poland to the USA, or from Poland to Berlin, without replaying a single scenario between the two. You would still have a number of scenarios you have not played yet [~20(?)].

So PzC2 has a lot of replay potential.

If you like playing with games as much as you like playing games,
this is the game for you.[This may not be a good thing for everyone].
But there is more than just this. Not one mention here of encirclement. :shock:

MickMannock
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by MickMannock » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:16 am

I think it should be underlined that this very much a different kind of game compared to Panzer General/Panzer Corps. The new mechanics makes you think in a very different way on how to build and manage your corps, and also how you go about planning for the different scenarios.

I liked what it saw during the beta and felt that it was already a very polished experience. Looking forward to the full game.

Hemi
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Hemi » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:10 pm

I find that the game has a lot more replay potential. Besides what was mentioned previously, you have positive and negative traits you give your forces, and these really change the strategies you use through the course of the campaign, and changes its flavor. So just by switching these up it's a completely different play through.

The core slots are a good mechanic, but beyond the cost for a Pzr III vs. a Tiger, if you want to overstrength a unit, you have to spend core slots to do that too, so it's a big balancing act. And that again lends itself to replaying a different core slot strat.

This is a very fun game. It is not PC1 3D, it takes it to a new level.

An we have overrun again

Sid Meier
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Sid Meier » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:22 pm

Sid Meier wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:54 pm
Rudankort wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:08 pm
Panzer Corps 1 and 2 are different games.
Sad to see this .. Good bye.
'Learning is part of any good video game'. © Sid Meier

Lifever
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Lifever » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:32 pm

Artistically and so emotionally - pretty different:

PC1 is a puzzle game in a ww2 setting. It allows the player to perceive it as he wants. You can connect to it on a carefree fun level... and blend ww2 out.

PC2 is a wargame in a ww2 setting. It immerses the player a lot more in that world. Your role is the decision maker in the generals tent.
Like it or not: This is war - Strategically

Technically:
PC2 is a refined version of PC1 with more sensitive shifts in balance that could potentially wave out. So it favours certain playstyles in specific situations. How this looks in play we will find out
If done well - a simple upgrade is the best upgrade

The same applies to a question, carry on

Lifever
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Lifever » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:35 pm

Sid Meier wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:54 pm
Rudankort wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:08 pm
Panzer Corps 1 and 2 are different games.
Sad to see this .. Good bye.
Rudankort, please let the pros handle this
Alberto?

brettwjohnson
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by brettwjohnson » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:20 pm

Thanks everyone who replied... I also found a good article or two that discussed the changes...

I'm leaning towards buying it, probably Field Marshal edition...

HOWEVER, I will admit to being concerned about the slot scaling...

I speak as someone who saw that concept absolutely ruin PG: 3D Assault, where high level leaders became so costly that it wasn't worth using them. It was bad enough and prompted so much negative feedback, that the scaling was removed for the successor game PG: Scorched Earth (which was *fantastic*). Some scaling can be ok, but it can lead to problems both in game balance (1 uber tank is often less good than 2 good tanks) AND can be a negative dynamic for upgrading units (which is a big part of the fun - how to spend your prestige to upgrade your Army).

Hemi
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Hemi » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:21 pm

This is not PG3 3d, not in the slightest. I get your concerns but I haven't found myself stifled by the slots, like PG3, rather more engaged in making decisions. I can't just overstrength everything to 15 and upgrade to King Tigers.

I have to choose which units to overstrength and then make use of them in battle. There are tools you have to manage your slots. I really don't feel constrained but I do have to be smart.

If that makes sense

MickMannock
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by MickMannock » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:42 am

Hemi wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:21 pm
This is not PG3 3d, not in the slightest. I get your concerns but I haven't found myself stifled by the slots, like PG3, rather more engaged in making decisions. I can't just overstrength everything to 15 and upgrade to King Tigers.

I have to choose which units to overstrength and then make use of them in battle. There are tools you have to manage your slots. I really don't feel constrained but I do have to be smart.

If that makes sense
This is a very good point. In Panzer General/Panzer Corps there were always certain no brainers to how I constructed and upgraded my corps. It felt very gamey, to the point that deep in the game, where the smartest thing was to upgrade to Tigers and Panthers, I always kept one or two Panzer IVh (or later j) for flavour, even though it wasn't necessarily the smartest thing to do.

During the beta I certainly didn't get far into the game (Fall Rot, 1940) but it felt pretty clear that I won't be able to run around with 10 overstrength Tiger/Panther tanks during the latter parts of the game and kick butt and I actually think that's a good thing. I have to weigh the pro's and con's against eachother of having, for example, 1 Tiger or 2 Panzer IVh. There's a whole new strategic element to building your corps and I enjoy it very much, even though I think it will take a few playthroughs before I get a good handle on it.

Kerensky
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Kerensky » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:19 am

It is the unfortunate nature of the campaign environment that practically demands the highest quality of units to be selected over any measure of quantity. Who cares if you have more tanks, because you only have access to so many hexes from which to attack your enemy down? Your average VH can only be attacked from the frontal three hexes. It takes a lot of extra effort to access the other three.

That said, the slot system at least tries to balance this a bit. The one thing no one has is multitudes of the best tank in maximum OS. That kind of slot draining is unsustainable to the point where your CORE is just undersized to the point where the amount of move/attack actions across your entire army is actually inefficient and ineffective.

Me personally, I generally only have a very small number of breakthrough (max quality, max OS) units. I only make a single Godzilla level infantry unit when I have about 50 total slots to work with. And once I start reaching 70 or 80, I might have a second.

So it feels like it's working. What would show it's not working is if anyone only ever had max OS units and that was all they used. :)

nexusno2000
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by nexusno2000 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:51 am

Max OS is rarely very efficient - but many units, especially in the early game, can be relatively cheaply OS to 11-13.

In fact, some 1-slot units, like the Storch and Bridge engineer cost nothing to OS a few levels :D And stuff like the early recon and BF110 can be OS to 11 wo any slot increase!

Speaking of the lowly Bf110: it is hardly a powerhouse in an of itself, but the base cost of 2 slots makes it very interesting to OS to 13 (3 slots) or even 15 (4 slots).

A 15 str Bf110 can take care of itself if attacked, is reasonably lethal vs both air and ground targets, so gets XP pretty quickly.

Which makes the OS extra valuable: as accuracy increases (+8% per star), every point of str gets added value!

Because of its low base cost, Bf100 also gets rather cheap in-scenario veteran replacements...

Anyway. The only expensive units I max-OS are a few ultra-elite spearhead units like Kerensky describes, usually with 1 or more good heroes.

And ones I can up Zero Slot heroes on (or maybe half slots hero) :idea:
Green Knight
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MickMannock
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by MickMannock » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:12 am

nexusno2000 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:51 am
Max OS is rarely very efficient - but many units, especially in the early game, can be relatively cheaply OS to 11-13.

In fact, some 1-slot units, like the Storch and Bridge engineer cost nothing to OS a few levels :D And stuff like the early recon and BF110 can be OS to 11 wo any slot increase!

Speaking of the lowly Bf110: it is hardly a powerhouse in an of itself, but the base cost of 2 slots makes it very interesting to OS to 13 (3 slots) or even 15 (4 slots).

A 15 str Bf110 can take care of itself if attacked, is reasonably lethal vs both air and ground targets, so gets XP pretty quickly.

Which makes the OS extra valuable: as accuracy increases (+8% per star), every point of str gets added value!

Because of its low base cost, Bf100 also gets rather cheap in-scenario veteran replacements...

Anyway. The only expensive units I max-OS are a few ultra-elite spearhead units like Kerensky describes, usually with 1 or more good heroes.

And ones I can up Zero Slot heroes on (or maybe half slots hero) :idea:
I haven't played as much as you have but I had the same observation about the Bf 110 as you did. I think throwing a few Bf 110 into the mix can be a quite cost effective way of organizing the air part of your corps.

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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by jeffoot77 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:16 pm

There are so many differences!

If there was ONE big difference , for me , it is the option that give the player the possibilty to desactivate the limit turns ! No more rush !
my custom single player mini-campaign in order of battle : normandie-niemen: Image
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=374&t=79333&p=676302#p676302

Longasc
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by Longasc » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:42 pm

Thanks for asking this question, OP, particular thanks also to dalfrede for answering it in such a concise and useful manner.

I watched some battles on YouTube by various YouTubers, some managed to give an impression how the game works, some others were slow and tried to explain things but actually didn't understand the mechanics and what they were doing. I wonder if there is an ingame tutorial for most mechanics, didn't see it.

I was unable to play during the pre-order access and will preorder tonight. Wanted to buy straight from Slitherine but seems preorders are only possible via Steam.

I am watching "World War II week by week" on YouTube but guess the forum is the better place to learn the intricacies and tricks of Panzer Corps 2.

It seems you can select either a historical progression or go with a victory based fictional path. I like that feature very much. I found it interesting that the turn limit can be disabled this time. Still wonder how this can work, particularly for defensive battles or scenarios you can potentially milk for prestige gains.

Whatever, I am in danger of going off topic. I guess I will for sure ask for advice here when surrounded on the Eastern Front. :D

nexusno2000
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by nexusno2000 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:53 pm

Longasc wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:42 pm
Thanks for asking this question, OP, particular thanks also to dalfrede for answering it in such a concise and useful manner.

I watched some battles on YouTube by various YouTubers, some managed to give an impression how the game works, some others were slow and tried to explain things but actually didn't understand the mechanics and what they were doing. I wonder if there is an ingame tutorial for most mechanics, didn't see it.

I was unable to play during the pre-order access and will preorder tonight. Wanted to buy straight from Slitherine but seems preorders are only possible via Steam.

I am watching "World War II week by week" on YouTube but guess the forum is the better place to learn the intricacies and tricks of Panzer Corps 2.

It seems you can select either a historical progression or go with a victory based fictional path. I like that feature very much. I found it interesting that the turn limit can be disabled this time. Still wonder how this can work, particularly for defensive battles or scenarios you can potentially milk for prestige gains.

Whatever, I am in danger of going off topic. I guess I will for sure ask for advice here when surrounded on the Eastern Front. :D
The final game has a series of tutorial scenarios, linked together so you learn step by step.
Green Knight
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dalfrede
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Re: PC2 vs. PC1 (and old General Games)

Post by dalfrede » Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:48 pm

Longasc wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:42 pm
Still wonder how this can work, particularly for defensive battles or scenarios you can potentially milk for prestige gains.
I have not turned off the turn limit, but if the victory condition says 'Hold all Victory Hexes on turn 20' if you hit turn 21 you have lost.

But there may be some scenarios with unexpected results.
In 'Italian Offensive' in AC, the goal is a managed retreat. In Guderian you don't have enough turns to get a Major Victory.

If you are worried about 'cheating' there are much better ways to 'cheat' than that.
For example it is possible to start Libya [41] with the army from Kursk [43] :mrgreen:
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

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