Do dead units still retain vision?

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NightPhoenix
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Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by NightPhoenix » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:18 pm

I have a question regarding game mechanics.

I've had multiple instances where AI behavior could only logically be explained by dead enemy units still keeping vision around a region for a turn (or more?) even when they were killed. (or if the AI had some *cough* cheating capabilities) But i could not find any mention of this in the manual. In the video 2 enemy aircraft attack where an AT gun died during the first turn. But they couldn't have seen it through vision of any other unit.

An example of this behavior can be seen in this short video: https://youtu.be/sesgsIJ-yts

Thanks!

Patrick Ward
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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by Patrick Ward » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:27 pm

NightPhoenix wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:18 pm
I have a question regarding game mechanics.

I've had multiple instances where AI behavior could only logically be explained by dead enemy units still keeping vision around a region for a turn (or more?) even when they were killed. (or if the AI had some *cough* cheating capabilities) But i could not find any mention of this in the manual. In the video 2 enemy aircraft attack where an AT gun died during the first turn. But they couldn't have seen it through vision of any other unit.

An example of this behavior can be seen in this short video: https://youtu.be/sesgsIJ-yts

Thanks!

Edit: Incorrect information deleted.

Edit: Useless rubbish deleted.
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Pat a Pixel Pusher

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Retributarr
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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by Retributarr » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:34 pm

I can't personally answer your Question myself... sorry!. However... I have also experienced this symptomatic problem myself as-well.

For both instances... when my unit was stationed/positioned at Sea or on Land... and my Unit was well out of sight of either units "Dead" or otherwise... somehow?... a Bomber or Tank or what-ever would somehow easily "Magically!!!" find me and deliver a blow!.

Now!... how is that possible???... unless the Computer can see everything on the Map!.

NightPhoenix
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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by NightPhoenix » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:37 pm

Alright, thanks for the info. That clarifies it somewhat. This kind of AI behavior is new to me, so i was curious why the plane attacked there. Very useful information as that means i need to prepare AA or fighter protection where enemy units died, not just where they can currently physically see me.

I didn't mean to suggest that the AI does, but merely that it's one of those 2 options =P. Besides, you might want the AI to cheat a little, but not crush my soul as i would lose interest in the game real fast, but that's besides the point.

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by Hemi » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:43 pm

Whether the enemy is close enough or not, do you move through an area that was lit up during the enemy's turn? The whole area the scout reveals shows movement, not just around the hex where the scout comes to rest

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by NightPhoenix » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:51 pm

Coming back on this im still not sure.

Please take a look at this video of Bug River, enemy turn 1: https://youtu.be/B_8yU5MtDE4


I killed an infantry and a cavalry on the first turn, they are seen dead as sprites. The first enemy plane runs into an ambush over the dead units vision (note that i even killed it with that bomber), but then the second enemy plane is able to spot my second artillery even though it couldn't have been spotted by anything else but the dead zombie horses!

So some of the dead have demon-vision but others don't?

NightPhoenix
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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by NightPhoenix » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:55 pm

Hemi wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:43 pm
Whether the enemy is close enough or not, do you move through an area that was lit up during the enemy's turn? The whole area the scout reveals shows movement, not just around the hex where the scout comes to rest
Not 100% sure what you mean by this. But there could not have been an enemy unit moving during the AI turn that would have spotted the artillery, but not be spotted by any of my units.

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by dalfrede » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:27 pm

I had noticed in PzC that killing a recon caused the AI to forget that it existed.
Which struck me as wrong and easy to correct.

In the pre Beta suggestion threads I suggested giving the AI some memory of things like what flags it held the previous turn
Having it assume a unit is where it last saw it in the previous turn sounds like a simple extension of that.

I have taken flags with a recon, moved on and had an AI plane attempt to attack the now empty hex.

If you shelled an AI unit, destroy it and then move your Arty, the AI should not know where it is, if you didn't move it, it should be able to guess.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by Hemi » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:58 pm

I actually like having a smart AI

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by NightPhoenix » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:13 am

Well sure, smart AI can be nice but i'm just trying to figure out the game. Understanding how something works is critical if you want to get better at it, i'm trying to learn, and i'm having a hard time on this one. The rules for ai behavior seem to be somewhat difficult to comprehend for other people as well so far? Cause what i got now is:

The AI can sometimes use the vision of a dead unit (or taken city) for 1 turn. Not sure why/how often/which units utilize this.
Killing a recon resets this (not confirmed?)?

Anybody?
dalfrede wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:27 pm
If you shelled an AI unit, destroy it and then move your Arty, the AI should not know where it is, if you didn't move it, it should be able to guess.
My second video contradicts this theory, as the unit that killed one of the enemy units caused an ambush, even though it didn't move.

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by Rudankort » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:21 am

The rules for the player and the AI are exactly the same. When you lose a unit, its vision disappears immediately. Same happens for the AI.

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by NightPhoenix » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:42 am

Rudankort wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:21 am
The rules for the player and the AI are exactly the same. When you lose a unit, its vision disappears immediately. Same happens for the AI.


Alright, fair enough. But, and this is not critisism but again just my *ehem* desperate plea for help again, i feel like people are talking past each other and what you are saying only adds to my confusion.

I've posted 2 videos which directly question this rule. They show that the rule: you lose a unit, the vision is gone, does not apply at all times or there are more rules affecting the AI when it comes to vision. The AI attacked units they should not have been able to see. And this has happened more often besides these 2 videos, they are just examples.

Does the AI try to guess where units were on my turn even if vision is gone?
How does such a rule (if it exists) relate to my second video, where the AI still gets ambushed by a unit in the exact spot where an enemy unit was killed, but not with another unit even though nether of those units would have been visible?

Thanks for the help in trying to clear this up for all people in the discussion btw!

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by Rudankort » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:58 am

NightPhoenix wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:42 am
Alright, fair enough. But, and this is not critisism but again just my *ehem* desperate plea for help again, i feel like people are talking past each other and what you are saying only adds to my confusion.


As someone who coded AI, I'm qualified to give answers which are definitive. There are no "vision cheats" in AI code, and it conforms to the same rules as the player. If the AI attacks a unit which it should not see, then only three explanations are possible.
- The AI does see the unit, but it's not instantly obvious how (returning planes spotting the map caused some confusion during the beta).
- The AI does not see a unit but it is lucky to bump into it while implementing some other AI logic.
- There is a bug in AI code which needs to be fixed.

Note that the last point is not out of the question at all, and I will happily address any such issues going forwards. In my opinion, non-cheating AI is absolutely mandatory in this kind of a game. Otherwise, smart players cannot use vision to their advantage, and it's no fun at all. If there is a saved game from where I can reliably repro the behavior of AI seeing through the fog, please send it to me: rudankort@yandex.ru. But I might not be able to look into it immediately, because right now the whole team is a bit overwhelmed with various technical issues which should take priority. Sorry in advance about that. :)

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by NightPhoenix » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:20 am

Alright, i definitely will.
To explain my desire to know, if the AI uses tactics such as remembering previously known locations (such as for artillery in my first video) It would be extremely helpful to know whether they do that or not.
It would mean the difference between providing AA/figher cover in areas that i otherwise thought safe based on enemy vision alone.The AI in Panzer Corps was relatively simple in the sense that it was predictable. It would not use something like "last seen location" to track a unit as far a i'm aware, and i played a lot. Naturally if the the AI in Panzer Corps 2 is different, which is obviously and understandably is, i need to learn the new patterns and behaviors regarding unit move order, use of vision etc. But i've been at odds about them targeting high profile units in the rear that they would not have been able to see based on spotting of living units alone (as far as i was able to check) so my air cover is less than optimal, and i'd like to improve!

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by Rudankort » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:24 am

NightPhoenix wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:20 am
To explain my desire to know, if the AI uses tactics such as remembering previously known locations (such as for artillery in my first video) It would be extremely helpful to know whether they do that or not.
Sure, I understand that. I can tell that right now the AI does not remember previously known locations or try to predict where a unit could have moved in the fog since seen last time. But I don't exclude adding these things to AI in the future. After all, people keep nagging me about a better AI, and when I have more time, I would be very interested in adding this. However, such "more advanced" AI modes will be unlocked explicitly in the UI, so this change will not arrive without warning.

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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by nexusno2000 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:38 am

Rudankort wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:24 am
NightPhoenix wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:20 am
To explain my desire to know, if the AI uses tactics such as remembering previously known locations (such as for artillery in my first video) It would be extremely helpful to know whether they do that or not.
Sure, I understand that. I can tell that right now the AI does not remember previously known locations or try to predict where a unit could have moved in the fog since seen last time. But I don't exclude adding these things to AI in the future. After all, people keep nagging me about a better AI, and when I have more time, I would be very interested in adding this. However, such "more advanced" AI modes will be unlocked explicitly in the UI, so this change will not arrive without warning.
Nag Nag :D

Remember: I'm more than willing to test AI enhancement work :D
Green Knight
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NightPhoenix
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Re: Do dead units still retain vision?

Post by NightPhoenix » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:57 pm

Haha, Don't make it too powerful now. Or nobody will be able to win. Please let me play with my dignity intact! ;)

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