Revised Campaign Path

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dalfrede
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Revised Campaign Path

Post by dalfrede » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:39 am

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Updated with latest data.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

dalfrede
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by dalfrede » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:34 am

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There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

Hexaboo
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Hexaboo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:17 am

Thanks for your work, the chart is really helpful!

Rudankort
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Rudankort » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:01 am

Prestige gates depend on difficulty level. 5000 is from Field Marshal.

All numbers are: 0, 1000, 3000, 5000, 10000

You can find them in path_selection_7.json and path_selection_8.json files in the Main campaign's folder. Which means that it is easy to mod and change or remove these requirements if needed.

MickMannock
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by MickMannock » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:25 am

Rudankort wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:01 am
Prestige gates depend on difficulty level. 5000 is from Field Marshal.

All numbers are: 0, 1000, 3000, 5000, 10000

You can find them in path_selection_7.json and path_selection_8.json files in the Main campaign's folder. Which means that it is easy to mod and change or remove these requirements if needed.
Thank you for the clarification. That is very helpful.

There have also been questions about the bonus objectives in the Bagration scenario. Could you elaborate on that as well?

Rudankort
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Rudankort » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:31 am

MickMannock wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:25 am
There have also been questions about the bonus objectives in the Bagration scenario. Could you elaborate on that as well?
As far as I remember, you get some extra core slots if you meet bonus objectives in Bagration.

Edmon
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Edmon » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:19 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:01 am
Prestige gates depend on difficulty level. 5000 is from Field Marshal.

All numbers are: 0, 1000, 3000, 5000, 10000

You can find them in path_selection_7.json and path_selection_8.json files in the Main campaign's folder. Which means that it is easy to mod and change or remove these requirements if needed.
Why is this a thing? I actually genuinely don't get why this is a thing. Having that kind of prestige floating around on the hardest difficulty requires you to basically sell things before you get to the "Gate" or forces you to replay for some sort of hero that lets you really farm prestige like Liberator. But it's not just that it's a really difficult gate to meet on the hardest difficulty, it's that it's totally arcane. There is no way for a player to know this is the reason they aren't on the German Victory ending. They go to all the effort to get the bonus objectives down and suddenly find themselves doing escape from Stalingrad.

I know you've said it can be modded, but as a guy doing this for the public, I know as soon as I hit this issue people are going to ask why I am on the losing path and I will have to explain that the game has a totally arcane prestige requirement that forces you to sell up to get 10,000 prestige, or cheese money using the Liberator+Liberator combo. I can already *feel* the negative feedback the game will get at that moment.

I could probably de-overstrength and downgrade to meet the requirement, but I genuinely don't get *why* you'd encourage this sort of arcane and frankly gamey response from a player.

Edit: I see it pops up and tells you of the cost after the mission. It's still totally arcane though and all my points on this still stand. Disbanding at the end of the previous mission so you can have a shot at the alternative historical path seems like total madness. Unless you know at the start this is coming and re-roll your killer team so you get liberator + liberator, meeting this requirement is going to require gaminess and cheese.

comradep
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by comradep » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:17 pm

It would help if the prestige cost/requirement is indicated in advance, so you know you need to save up if you want to take the "Nazi's win the war" path. As there are no victory levels like in Panzer Corps, some additional mechanic is justifiable. Otherwise, all you would have to do is win the scenario with bonus objectives achieved and you're on the hypothetical path.

I don't think 10.000 prestige is too steep, even if you don't use Liberator and/or Trophies of War. Compared to the original Panzer Corps, there's much less of a prestige squeeze due to the changes to the upgrade system. Upgrading is very cheap now.

If you want to fill all slots with the most modern equipment, you might not have that much prestige, but otherwise I don't think it will be a problem on any difficulty.

o_t_d_x
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by o_t_d_x » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:19 pm

I feel thy pain. I won Gazala WITH the bonus targets and then i should spend so much prestige ? I had 450 prestige left, in a campaign where you dont get supplies often. Maybe i dont know the mechanics well enough, some people claim to have made 5000 prestige with capturing ...

Retributarr
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Retributarr » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:38 pm

o_t_d_x wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:19 pm
I feel thy pain. I won Gazala WITH the bonus targets and then i should spend so much prestige ? I had 450 prestige left, in a campaign where you dont get supplies often. Maybe i dont know the mechanics well enough, some people claim to have made 5000 prestige with capturing ...
t_d_x: "I had 450 prestige left"

I also won Gazala WITH the bonus targets... but with only approximately 450 prestige left... I concluded that it was time for me to put my tail between my legs and 'pack-it-in'... there is/was no further point in continuing this pointless-senseless effort!.

Edmon
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Edmon » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:19 pm

comradep wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:17 pm
It would help if the prestige cost/requirement is indicated in advance, so you know you need to save up if you want to take the "Nazi's win the war" path. As there are no victory levels like in Panzer Corps, some additional mechanic is justifiable. Otherwise, all you would have to do is win the scenario with bonus objectives achieved and you're on the hypothetical path.

I don't think 10.000 prestige is too steep, even if you don't use Liberator and/or Trophies of War. Compared to the original Panzer Corps, there's much less of a prestige squeeze due to the changes to the upgrade system. Upgrading is very cheap now.

If you want to fill all slots with the most modern equipment, you might not have that much prestige, but otherwise I don't think it will be a problem on any difficulty.
My entire army, with two 15 strength very expensive zero slot units, by that point in the game is worth about 12,000 prestige. On Generalissimus, liberator is manditory and 10,000 prestige is a vast quantity unless you have one of the "uber" prestige generating combos (which I do not).

On lower difficulties, the amount required is lower and by nature of them being lower difficulties, you shouldn't encounter an issue, but that doesn't mean it isn't an arcane and gamey mechanic that makes little sense.

The bonus objectives make perfect sense as the path to earn a german victory. This "please pay 10,000 for the win the war DLC" thing is not.

comradep
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by comradep » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:01 pm

It requires careful husbanding of resources, instead of simply capturing objectives. I think that's a good idea, provided it's mentioned in advance.

Is it more "arcadey and gamey" than "win on turn 12=decisive victory and alternate path, win on turn 13=tactical victory and normal path"? Or "capture these hexes to trigger the alternate path"? I don't think it is, if anything it's more interesting than the requirement being winning a scenario in a certain way.

How expensive a core force is might not be the decisive factor. A lot would depend on how much you spent on replacements, how many units you captured/forced to surrender and so forth.

Edmon
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Edmon » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:13 pm

comradep wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:01 pm
It requires careful husbanding of resources, instead of simply capturing objectives. I think that's a good idea, provided it's mentioned in advance.

Is it more "arcadey and gamey" than "win on turn 12=decisive victory and alternate path, win on turn 13=tactical victory and normal path"? Or "capture these hexes to trigger the alternate path"? I don't think it is, if anything it's more interesting than the requirement being winning a scenario in a certain way.

How expensive a core force is might not be the decisive factor. A lot would depend on how much you spent on replacements, how many units you captured/forced to surrender and so forth.
Ok first thing is, it's not mentioned in advance.

Secondly, I am not throwing away resources, obviously. I am playing on the hardest difficulty and have not lost a single unit thus far. I have made a profit every mission thus far, including on Moscow. However, I don't have any of the uber prestige generating heroes. Such as overwhelming attack + evelopment or "liberator", which makes a huge difference to your bottom line no matter how good you are. Thanks to zero slot heros, my army is massively overstrength, which you'd think would be a good thing for the war effort...

Yes, it's absolutely more gamey than clear battle objectives that need to be won to break the soviet warmachine. Seriously, how on earth does checking my bank account actually matter? Why is it the case that selling some of my units at a certain point makes it possible to win the war... yet keeping them and/or keeping their experience high with elite reinforcement and/or upgrades is the decision that makes you not be able to win the war? It literally makes no sense no matter how you look at it. You are doing things that would actually help you lose the war, in order to win it.

As it stands, I might still make the 10,000 prestige objective, because I have 6,500 going into the final map and there is at least 5,000+ on the board.

But it is arcane and gamey. If it's too easy to get on the alternative path, make the combat objectives harder. The bank account check really isn't fun.

and I doubt anyone here would argue that it is. That it's in any way fun, even if you think it's somehow reasonable.

Moransky
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Moransky » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:17 pm

Maybe developers beared in mind that we should pay money for ships to transfer army to UK and US.

But 10k is too much. Now I see that the decision to find Overwhelming attack + Envelope was right.

dalfrede
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by dalfrede » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:01 pm

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Reminder, a simple edit to a text file and you will be paid to take the Fictional path.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

o_t_d_x
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by o_t_d_x » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:02 pm

Seems that i played the game like pc1, that was the mistake. I started a new campaign, this time i used encirclement a lot and i try to capture units whenever possible. Even now i have much more prestige, then in my last game. And the traits liberator and the one that gives you more prestige for capture, helps too. I think that way it should be possible to achieve at least 5000 prestige. The gazala encirclement alone would have given me much prestige, if i would have captured the enemy instead of killing them.

@developers: nice trap for everybody who denies pc2 features and plays it the "old style". :mrgreen:

ahtf
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by ahtf » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:38 am

Edmon wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:13 pm
comradep wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:01 pm
It requires careful husbanding of resources, instead of simply capturing objectives. I think that's a good idea, provided it's mentioned in advance.

Is it more "arcadey and gamey" than "win on turn 12=decisive victory and alternate path, win on turn 13=tactical victory and normal path"? Or "capture these hexes to trigger the alternate path"? I don't think it is, if anything it's more interesting than the requirement being winning a scenario in a certain way.

How expensive a core force is might not be the decisive factor. A lot would depend on how much you spent on replacements, how many units you captured/forced to surrender and so forth.
Ok first thing is, it's not mentioned in advance.

Secondly, I am not throwing away resources, obviously. I am playing on the hardest difficulty and have not lost a single unit thus far. I have made a profit every mission thus far, including on Moscow. However, I don't have any of the uber prestige generating heroes. Such as overwhelming attack + evelopment or "liberator", which makes a huge difference to your bottom line no matter how good you are. Thanks to zero slot heros, my army is massively overstrength, which you'd think would be a good thing for the war effort...

Yes, it's absolutely more gamey than clear battle objectives that need to be won to break the soviet warmachine. Seriously, how on earth does checking my bank account actually matter? Why is it the case that selling some of my units at a certain point makes it possible to win the war... yet keeping them and/or keeping their experience high with elite reinforcement and/or upgrades is the decision that makes you not be able to win the war? It literally makes no sense no matter how you look at it. You are doing things that would actually help you lose the war, in order to win it.

As it stands, I might still make the 10,000 prestige objective, because I have 6,500 going into the final map and there is at least 5,000+ on the board.

But it is arcane and gamey. If it's too easy to get on the alternative path, make the combat objectives harder. The bank account check really isn't fun.

and I doubt anyone here would argue that it is. That it's in any way fun, even if you think it's somehow reasonable.
Well i disagree, I also think the 1 turn “makes all the difference was more gamey”. Amount of saved prestige is a measure o do how well you played. And I think it’s logical that the “high command” only would have taken a risky offensive if there where a lot of supply available.

I do agree that it would have been nice to have known the demand before however :)

Edmon
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by Edmon » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:11 am

ahtf wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:38 am
Edmon wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:13 pm
comradep wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:01 pm
It requires careful husbanding of resources, instead of simply capturing objectives. I think that's a good idea, provided it's mentioned in advance.

Is it more "arcadey and gamey" than "win on turn 12=decisive victory and alternate path, win on turn 13=tactical victory and normal path"? Or "capture these hexes to trigger the alternate path"? I don't think it is, if anything it's more interesting than the requirement being winning a scenario in a certain way.

How expensive a core force is might not be the decisive factor. A lot would depend on how much you spent on replacements, how many units you captured/forced to surrender and so forth.
Ok first thing is, it's not mentioned in advance.

Secondly, I am not throwing away resources, obviously. I am playing on the hardest difficulty and have not lost a single unit thus far. I have made a profit every mission thus far, including on Moscow. However, I don't have any of the uber prestige generating heroes. Such as overwhelming attack + evelopment or "liberator", which makes a huge difference to your bottom line no matter how good you are. Thanks to zero slot heros, my army is massively overstrength, which you'd think would be a good thing for the war effort...

Yes, it's absolutely more gamey than clear battle objectives that need to be won to break the soviet warmachine. Seriously, how on earth does checking my bank account actually matter? Why is it the case that selling some of my units at a certain point makes it possible to win the war... yet keeping them and/or keeping their experience high with elite reinforcement and/or upgrades is the decision that makes you not be able to win the war? It literally makes no sense no matter how you look at it. You are doing things that would actually help you lose the war, in order to win it.

As it stands, I might still make the 10,000 prestige objective, because I have 6,500 going into the final map and there is at least 5,000+ on the board.

But it is arcane and gamey. If it's too easy to get on the alternative path, make the combat objectives harder. The bank account check really isn't fun.

and I doubt anyone here would argue that it is. That it's in any way fun, even if you think it's somehow reasonable.
Well i disagree, I also think the 1 turn “makes all the difference was more gamey”. Amount of saved prestige is a measure o do how well you played. And I think it’s logical that the “high command” only would have taken a risky offensive if there where a lot of supply available.

I do agree that it would have been nice to have known the demand before however :)
Number of turns represents the amount of time you have. Time is a critical factor in any battle, it is not gamey at all.

Amount of saved prestige is not necessarily a measure of how well you have played. If you are swimming in pesitge you could actually be using it to train your troops in battle, especially infantry which are hard to level. Unless you somehow are running a full team of 5 star units. A bank of prestige is fine and having a lot is no bad thing nor is it bad play, but floating 10,000 is likely to actually be inefficient play at the highest difficulty in terms of leveling your units. There is no easy way to get some units stars except to grind and reinforce them in combat.

This is why it's so gamey, you can be punished for actually using your resources to obtain a stronger core over time, instead of sitting on them and having them where they are not doing anything for you.

ahtf
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by ahtf » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:44 am

Edmon wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:11 am
ahtf wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:38 am
Edmon wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:13 pm


Ok first thing is, it's not mentioned in advance.

Secondly, I am not throwing away resources, obviously. I am playing on the hardest difficulty and have not lost a single unit thus far. I have made a profit every mission thus far, including on Moscow. However, I don't have any of the uber prestige generating heroes. Such as overwhelming attack + evelopment or "liberator", which makes a huge difference to your bottom line no matter how good you are. Thanks to zero slot heros, my army is massively overstrength, which you'd think would be a good thing for the war effort...

Yes, it's absolutely more gamey than clear battle objectives that need to be won to break the soviet warmachine. Seriously, how on earth does checking my bank account actually matter? Why is it the case that selling some of my units at a certain point makes it possible to win the war... yet keeping them and/or keeping their experience high with elite reinforcement and/or upgrades is the decision that makes you not be able to win the war? It literally makes no sense no matter how you look at it. You are doing things that would actually help you lose the war, in order to win it.

As it stands, I might still make the 10,000 prestige objective, because I have 6,500 going into the final map and there is at least 5,000+ on the board.

But it is arcane and gamey. If it's too easy to get on the alternative path, make the combat objectives harder. The bank account check really isn't fun.

and I doubt anyone here would argue that it is. That it's in any way fun, even if you think it's somehow reasonable.
Well i disagree, I also think the 1 turn “makes all the difference was more gamey”. Amount of saved prestige is a measure o do how well you played. And I think it’s logical that the “high command” only would have taken a risky offensive if there where a lot of supply available.

I do agree that it would have been nice to have known the demand before however :)
Number of turns represents the amount of time you have. Time is a critical factor in any battle, it is not gamey at all.

Amount of saved prestige is not necessarily a measure of how well you have played. If you are swimming in pesitge you could actually be using it to train your troops in battle, especially infantry which are hard to level. Unless you somehow are running a full team of 5 star units. A bank of prestige is fine and having a lot is no bad thing nor is it bad play, but floating 10,000 is likely to actually be inefficient play at the highest difficulty in terms of leveling your units. There is no easy way to get some units stars except to grind and reinforce them in combat.

This is why it's so gamey, you can be punished for actually using your resources to obtain a stronger core over time, instead of sitting on them and having them where they are not doing anything for you.
Well i don’t think we will ever agree. But I have a hard time seeing people being able to play in efficiently on hardest level and save 10 k.
You could also see it that you saved prestige for the war effort not needing to upgrade everything. These then makes it able to go for a end victory.

But my main point stands, I do not believe that people will fail the limit because they played so well that they had less prestige then needed. At the lower limit the amount needed is low, at highest you can’t play inefficiently and achieve the limit.

econ21
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Re: Revised Campaign Path

Post by econ21 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:05 pm

Can I just clarify: do you just need to have X prestige to progress or does it cost X prestige? i.e. could you save up the X prestige to satisfy the requirement and still have it free for upgrades?

I am not sure how PzC2 is, but there were some pretty big time skips in the PzC ahistorical victory path, so having a lot of prestige in the bank to pay for upgrades would be handy. It's the reason I did not pick the anti-trait limiting generals to 3 upgrades a scenario. That's ok in general but not if you are jumping from Sealion43 to US Coast 1945 or whatever.

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