Artillery is Rather Broken

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kverdon
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Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by kverdon » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:55 am

Ok, artillery seems pretty messed up right now. I have 2 170mm artillery units that don't seem to fire in support of ANYTHING. I've had AT, mobile artillery, infantry, tanks, etc attacked by infantry when backed up by this artillery piece and it has not fired a single round. Please explain what twisted rational came up with this one? Can you please fix this?

I think i found the setting in the units.csv file and fixed it myself. You should really rethink it make no sense whatsoever.

Brausepaul
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by Brausepaul » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:44 am

Can you be a little bit more specific? What change exactly did you do?

kverdon
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by kverdon » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:00 am

I edited the Units.csv to add the "Arty Support" for the 17cmk18 units like below. I believe that should do it.

17cmK18,"NSLOCTEXT('units','17cmK18','17 cm K 18')","NSLOCTEXT('units','17cmK18','17 cm K 18')",Artillery,Soft,Towed,19,TRUE,FALSE,26,TRUE,FALSE,0,TRUE,FALSE,2,TRUE,FALSE,7,1,0,10,3,1,4,10,5,0,"(CounterBattery,ArtySupport,ATSupport,SuppressingFire,EntKiller3,MineKiller)",17cmk18,(DE),HeavyGun,320,5,01.06.1941 - 01.01.1946,

Femto
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by Femto » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:02 am

170mms provide support only against tanks. So do 210mms.
You have to check traits of each artillery to see if they provide support against infantry, tanks or both (like 150mms).

jeffoot77
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by jeffoot77 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:43 am

The problem with artillery is that the entrechment of an engeener enemy in a city can't be down to zero : the engeener is entrenching too fast each turn ! So it is impossible to clean a city with an engeener without big lost for attacker.

Artillery should make at least one real damage, one real death each turn, and not only suppression fire.
my custom single player mini-campaign in order of battle : normandie-niemen: Image
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=374&t=79333&p=676302#p676302

Cortilein
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by Cortilein » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:37 am

jeffoot77 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:43 am
Artillery should make at least one real damage, one real death each turn, and not only suppression fire.
Personally, I'm pretty fine with the idea of diversified uses of different units based on traits, as it serves the purpose that you don't want to always get the biggest and newest equipment. The absolute "black-and-white" nature of how this was implemented bothers me, though - even more so with anti-air rather than artillery: Heavy AA (and arty) guns should at least inflict SOME outright kills as well. For AA, there is the "Anti-Air Veteran" option during leader customization, which turns aircraft suppression into kills. Once you realize you wanted that trait for some serious AA barrage, but didn't pick it, you have purchased lots of FlaK guns for your core but yet all of them can ONLY suppress... I wish there was some gradual increase in the ability of AA/arty guns to inflict outright kills depending on gun caliber/fire rate/range. Maybe this is already in the game, and depends on unit experience/stars?

nexusno2000
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by nexusno2000 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:19 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:43 am
The problem with artillery is that the entrechment of an engeener enemy in a city can't be down to zero : the engeener is entrenching too fast each turn ! So it is impossible to clean a city with an engeener without big lost for attacker.

Artillery should make at least one real damage, one real death each turn, and not only suppression fire.
You have to account for base entrenchment. It can never be removed by attacks.
Green Knight
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nexusno2000
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by nexusno2000 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:20 pm

kverdon wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:55 am
Ok, artillery seems pretty messed up right now. I have 2 170mm artillery units that don't seem to fire in support of ANYTHING. I've had AT, mobile artillery, infantry, tanks, etc attacked by infantry when backed up by this artillery piece and it has not fired a single round. Please explain what twisted rational came up with this one? Can you please fix this?

I think i found the setting in the units.csv file and fixed it myself. You should really rethink it make no sense whatsoever.

No. You're wrong.

You should have taken the 15cm. Wishing for a super-gun that can do everything best is a no go imo.
Green Knight
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Nalikill
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by Nalikill » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:40 pm

Additionally, it only provides AT / Artillery support when immediately adjacent to the unit, not to any unit within its range. This may be the other problem you're having.

Sjoa18
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by Sjoa18 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:44 pm

kverdon - did your edit work? I did it but the arty support trait isn't showing up in the game in the unit description. I'm not 100% sure editing just the UNITS Excel doc does the trick. That'd be too simple. But I know very little about programming etc....

Mordan
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by Mordan » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:57 pm

my first feeling about artillery is that it has been over nerfed from pzc1..


artillery was damn powerful in real life. It is one of the most important asset against infantry.

panzeh
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by panzeh » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:33 pm

Artillery is incredibly important in this game. It's not gonna clear the city for you but it'll give you a pretty easy time for your pioneers to do their work. It's very good at entrenched units in the clear as it can completely clear all entrenchments in the open.

nexusno2000
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by nexusno2000 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:36 pm

Mordan wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:57 pm
my first feeling about artillery is that it has been over nerfed from pzc1..


artillery was damn powerful in real life. It is one of the most important asset against infantry.
Range 3-4, massive attack ratings, defensive fire support.

Artillery is still OP :D

But now, you must have actual boots on the ground to clear terrain.

It is a MUCH better mechanic.
Green Knight
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jeffoot77
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by jeffoot77 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm

"it'll give you a pretty easy time for your pioneers to do their work."

--> and how do y ou take a city with no available pionners ? with an infantery attacking a city defended by an engeener with 9 entrenchment , you just' can't take it even with artillery because engeener entrench faster than you suppressed! just not realistic !
my custom single player mini-campaign in order of battle : normandie-niemen: Image
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=374&t=79333&p=676302#p676302

Lakel
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by Lakel » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:56 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm
"it'll give you a pretty easy time for your pioneers to do their work."

--> and how do y ou take a city with no available pionners ? with an infantery attacking a city defended by an engeener with 9 entrenchment , you just' can't take it even with artillery because engeener entrench faster than you suppressed! just not realistic !
Not having any pioneers is on your commanding. 2 arty pieces alone is enough to drop entrenchment to a minimum for just about any occasion however. swap in a strat bomber if you have a chance clear of AA. Make sure you target any supporting Artillery behind the enemy lines. Even better, get a 170/210mm and keep it with your line to counter-battery and suppress the enemy artillery.
Shell it twice, and so far i havent found any occasion regular infantry cant at least start wearing their strength down. To add on, often enough the 150mm and up, including the Sturmpanzer do claim hard kills ontop of suppression. Tack on a Lethal Attack hero and you get one of the nastiest artilleries available, at the cost of begin able to capture a lot of equipment.

Fun note, did find an AT Support hero, gotta decide if i want ot slap him on artillery, or a tank yet. Come to think of, curious how we would affect the 88mm in AA mode. science ahead!

nexusno2000
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by nexusno2000 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:11 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm
"it'll give you a pretty easy time for your pioneers to do their work."

--> and how do y ou take a city with no available pionners ? with an infantery attacking a city defended by an engeener with 9 entrenchment , you just' can't take it even with artillery because engeener entrench faster than you suppressed! just not realistic !
That's not the case.

Eng can have max 10 ent in town/city.

Just 1 stugB strips that down to 6. 1 more attack by 15cm and its 4, which is as low as it comes (base ent). You don't even need a stug. Just 1 15cm + 1 17/21 cm and maybe a plane attack. Then you have killed as few pts, and you have moved your own 2 inf, 1 eng 1 other into position. Next round you repeat, and wipe out enemy inf with MINIMAL casualties, even on max difficulty.

The problem here is you don't use units correctly.
Green Knight
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kverdon
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by kverdon » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:20 pm

Nalikill wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:40 pm
Additionally, it only provides AT / Artillery support when immediately adjacent to the unit, not to any unit within its range. This may be the other problem you're having.
No in each of my cases the Arty failed to fire when adjacent to the unit being attacked. Having Artillery not support against infantry attacks after a certain tube size is reached is pretty out there for example:

Inf Officer: WE ARE UNDER DIRECT INFANTRY ASSAULT!!! WE NEED ARTILLERY SUPPORT NOW!

17cm Art Officer: Roger, are the infantry accompanied by Panzers?

Inf Officer: NEIN! Just swarms of Infantry we need FINAL PROTECTIVE FIRE NOW!

17cm Arty Officer: Just Infantry? Piffle! Not worth the power of our mighty shells!

Inf Officer: NO!!! We are about to get OVERUN! For Pity's sake FIRE NOW!!!!

17cm Arty Officer: NEIN! If you cannot mange to defeat a simple infantry attack, then you deserve to die. GOODBYE!

Kerensky
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by Kerensky » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:32 pm

I see it as heavily artillery being less nimble and flexible and unable to respond to calls for immediate, close range fire support, compared to their lighter cousins.
Reasoning aside, it was definitely done for game balance. You can't just only have the biggest artillery and expect it to handle everything. The lighter pieces need their use too, or they are obsolete the moment a bigger gun comes out.

Bigger guns do the main job of artillery better than lighter guns. They have superior range, entrenchment breaking power, and deal more kills and suppression. The trade off is low mobility and high slot cost.
Lighter guns gain mobility, are much cheaper on slot cost, and provide good close support protection. But decreased range and power are massive drawbacks to artillery, because these two stats are arguably the most important function of artillery.

The ultimate example of this is the 1 range StuG and Brummar artillery types. They are so short ranged, they're sort of not even artillery anymore. They provide support fire for sure, but the inability to fire over a hex and needing to be in limited real estate adjacent hexes really hurts them.

dalfrede
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by dalfrede » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:04 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:32 pm
The ultimate example of this is the 1 range StuG and Brummar artillery types. They are so short ranged, they're sort of not even artillery anymore. They provide support fire for sure, but the inability to fire over a hex and needing to be in limited real estate adjacent hexes really hurts them.
The German and British Assault Guns have EntKiller4 trait, which makes them TrackedStrats.
The Russian and American Assault Guns have EntKiller2 trait, which makes them pointless.

H/T to nexusno2000 for noticing the EntKiller4 trait, I had missed it.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

gunnergoz
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Re: Artillery is Rather Broken

Post by gunnergoz » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:58 pm

I'm loving the power of sending over a simple Fiesler Storch aircraft which seems to turn most city battles into much lest costly affairs. Coupled with the arty barrages, it is my most useful blowtorch & corkscrew tool.

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