Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

A new story begins...
The sequel to a real classic: Panzer Corps is back!

Moderator: Panzer Corps 2 Moderators

Dorky8
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:24 pm

Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Dorky8 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:31 pm

I posted the following in another thread
Dorky8 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:21 pm
panzeh wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:25 pm
Dorky8 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:57 pm
Can someone explain the parameters of encircled troops?

I'm getting troops encircled when they have allies next to them and a clear line of supply behind them.
Friendly units do not negate EZOCs unless you have the perk that does this.

The reason people are having issues with encirclement is the ZOC rules are too strict. Your enemies ZOC blocks supply even if you have a unit there, therefore encircling. This makes encircling way to easy and confusing.

Excerpt from the attached article on ZOC & supply: The game would be better served with a "Suppressive" ZOC IMO

EFFECTS ON SUPPLY LINE AND RETREAT
Interdicting – Prohibits the path of retreat or supply from being traced through an Enemy Controlled hex regardless of the presence of Friendly units.’
Suppressive – Prohibits the path of supply or retreat from being traced through an Enemy controlled hex if the hex is not occupied by Friendly Units.
Permissive – Does not affect the path of supply or retreat in any way.






https://wargamehq.com/mechanics-monday- ... ol-basics/

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7182
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Kerensky » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:06 pm

I dunno, I find it quite clear and working excellently.

It's quite definitively laid out in this nicely produced clip, also available in the game's tutorial section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VpeMgW ... =emb_title

Nalikill
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:19 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Nalikill » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:14 pm

It would be kinda nice to have more mechanics that played with supply though:
#1 - having Transport Planes that can provide one-time "refreshes" inside of an encirclement - hyper-vulnerable to enemy AA of any kind and hyper-expensive.
#2 - maybe have / create a non-combat unit that can chain supply despite enemy ZOC - e.g., "This unit can transport supplies through enemy ZOC to an otherwise encircled unit". Maybe have it be a late-game version of Bridge Pioneers and rename them Logistics Corps.
#3 - Strat bombers destroying ammo and fuel is a mechanic I think is interesting and needs to be buffed and we should see on more units - e.g., imagine a Commando or Special Forces infantry unit that focuses on suppressing the enemy and destroying their fuel/ammo.

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7182
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Kerensky » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:20 pm

Nalikill wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:14 pm
It would be kinda nice to have more mechanics that played with supply though:
#1 - having Transport Planes that can provide one-time "refreshes" inside of an encirclement - hyper-vulnerable to enemy AA of any kind and hyper-expensive.
#2 - maybe have / create a non-combat unit that can chain supply despite enemy ZOC - e.g., "This unit can transport supplies through enemy ZOC to an otherwise encircled unit". Maybe have it be a late-game version of Bridge Pioneers and rename them Logistics Corps.
#3 - Strat bombers destroying ammo and fuel is a mechanic I think is interesting and needs to be buffed and we should see on more units - e.g., imagine a Commando or Special Forces infantry unit that focuses on suppressing the enemy and destroying their fuel/ammo.
I don't have any objection to expansion/improvement of the system.

You know what I really, really want? I want the AI to have settings that react to being in an encircled state. If an AI unit finds itself encircled, provided it has an appropriate setting, it needs to react and attempt to find/fight a way out of encirclement. The AI is a little bit too passive with encirclement, I'd feel better if units seemingly tried harder to break out of ZOC encirclement, which in turns means the player needs to more rely on full unit encirclement and not just easier to make ZOC created encirclements.

Not as a blanket AI rule, but a rule for specifically configured AI units to obey. This is mostly directed at units who have orders for counterattacking and maneuver. Not for units that are entrenched, because then it just looks like they're abandoning defensive positions to die in the open.

SineMora
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by SineMora » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:45 pm

Image

At the very least I don't think this kind of maneuver should be so easy to pull off -- note that most of the Belgian forces are just sitting in the FoW waiting for me to get close enough to attack, seemingly not caring that they're going to run out of supplies soon.
Mildly pretentious Swede. Goes by Path on most platforms, including Steam.
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=596&t=98034 -- Generalissimus AAR (no Trophies / Heroes)

Hexaboo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:08 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Hexaboo » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:51 pm

Heh, the Belgians' AI is very passive in that area, except for one recon unit. See that Belgian village in the top centre? You can take it, leave, and they won't lift a finger to take it back. :)

Dorky8
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:24 pm

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Dorky8 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:19 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:06 pm
I dunno, I find it quite clear and working excellently.

It's quite definitively laid out in this nicely produced clip, also available in the game's tutorial section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VpeMgW ... =emb_title


I dunno did you actually read my post on zones of control?

Nalikill
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:19 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Nalikill » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:24 pm

Dorky8 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:19 pm


I dunno did you actually read my post on zones of control?
To be fair, your post is completely unrelated to your title. Your post contains a suggested change but no discussion of why you consider encirclement confusing or consider it to function poorly. Choosing between sets of related mechanics is always going to be a difficult design decision and you didn't talk about even the pros or cons of going with suppressive vs. interdicting ZOC mechanics.

Dorky8
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:24 pm

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Dorky8 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:31 pm

If you don't see the issue it really isn't that important.

I find Encirclement to be far to easy because the ZOC blocks supply even if there is an Allied unit there. I also think that is why others find it confusing.

I thought my post was fairly clear and my post has everything to do with my title.

Nalikill
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:19 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Nalikill » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:41 pm

Dorky8 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:31 pm
If you don't see the issue it really isn't that important.

I find Encirclement to be far to easy because the ZOC blocks supply even if there is an Allied unit there.

I thought my post was fairly clear.
It has no discussion on why you think that's a problem. Why is it being easy a problem? Only recon cars can move through ZOC, so it's just as easy to position your units to avoid encirclement (e.g., have adjacent units so they can't circumvent the ZOC and encircle you in a single move).

VS the AI, the game KNOWS how easy it is to encircle the AI... and that's part of why the AI gets an overwhelming numerical advantage in comparison to you, to make it more difficult to encircle.

Dorky8
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:24 pm

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Dorky8 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:46 pm

I'm talking about the MP game. No one cares about the these shortcomings vs AI it works to their advantage.

Do you work for the Developers?

8)

Nalikill
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:19 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Nalikill » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:37 pm

Dorky8 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:46 pm
I'm talking about the MP game. No one cares about the these shortcomings vs AI it works to their advantage.

Do you work for the Developers?

8)
No, lol, I don't work for the developers.

In re the AI though - that's my point - only the AI part of my statement was specifically addressing the AI.

In regards to multiplayer, you have to actually put forward an argument, not just say "CHANGE THIS NAO." WHY do you think the current system doesn't work? WHY do you think this would be better? etc. Which is exactly what I said.

PoorOldSpike
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Posts: 1355
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:49 pm

Dorky8 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:31 pm
I find Encirclement to be far to easy because the ZOC blocks supply even if there is an Allied unit there...
I agree, I've been playing board and computer wargames for 37 years and in the vast majority of them a friendly unit will negate an enemy ZOC for supply tracing purposes.
At least the upside is that we'll be able to cut the enemy's supply with ZOC's just like he's doing to us..:)

PS- For the record an enemy zoc into a supply source apparently has NO effect on supply (unless I've wrongly mis-interpreted this screenshot of a random battle I played recently). Note most of my Germans are able to trace supply to the port at bottom left even though an American Greyhound has got a ZOC on the port.
(The 3 Germans at the top are of course out of supply because the major river blocks their supply path to the port)

Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tanks were invented to make war more fun

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7182
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Kerensky » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:52 pm

Nalikill wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:37 pm
No, lol, I don't work for the developers.

In re the AI though - that's my point - only the AI part of my statement was specifically addressing the AI.

In regards to multiplayer, you have to actually put forward an argument, not just say "CHANGE THIS NAO." WHY do you think the current system doesn't work? WHY do you think this would be better? etc. Which is exactly what I said.
That is an impressively large encirclement, I wouldn't exactly call that simple to create. You have very long chains of units holding it together. And you have the key ingredient to making the best encirclements, the terrain helping you out. In this case, the English Channel. But yes, to make it that large, you've definitely got some extremely weak links in those chains. Could be nice for the AI to try and take advantage of... but in this case, I believe the remaining Allied units aren't really suited for counter attack. I see only a few towed units and scatterings of infantry.

You know what though, the AI can sort of make big encirclements too. This encirclement actually destroyed one of my Defender of the Reich runs.
Pretty sure I'm dead again. I just need to stop trying to forage the northwestern portion of the map. I keep getting encircled and my income drops to zero and my foraging team takes insane damage.

Image

That's the biggest encirclement the AI has even caught me in. It's actually kind of impressive.

I seem to be getting pinned between the Rhine to my west, garrisons to my east, the British reinforcement zone to my north, and American attack waves to my south. Hence the south 'border' extending so far down.
As for multiplayer, I'm mostly amused by people being terrified of paratroopers. And as you said, I'm not really interested in change because one person doesn't like some mechanic. It's not like factions in MP have access to a dozen air transport.

Interestingly enough, someone actually did present a compelling argument. Shame it was in a private message, so I won't say what they said, but I can post my response.
Our internal testing showed a German bias on this map. But it sounds like your experience shows an aggressive Soviet players who knows they can advance at full speed and do so relatively safely is taking advantage of their going first.

I don't think this is too problematic. Any units I buy as the Soviets at the left central supply hex are immediately engulfed by the German advance, and the main Soviet army is too slow to back them up. It's unfortunate that because it is a supply hex itself, no proper encirclement occurs.

In the short term, the easy fix is to move the Panzer IVH up one hex, so that on its very first turn, it can move and occupy the central left supply hex and purchase units from there on turn one. So Soviets can airdrop rush the right central supply hex, but at least this way they don't gobble up both immediately before the German player can respond.

-Kerensky
I put that change into the production queue, hopefully we'll see it take effect as early as next patch. :)

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7182
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Kerensky » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:55 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:49 pm
At least the upside is that we'll be able to cut the enemy's supply with ZOC's just like he's doing to us..:)
That is the crux of the argument. It's not like this is a one sided effect. It affects all sides equally. It's not an unfair advantage, just a lack of understanding on the specifics of the rule, and an expectation for it to want to work differently instead of acclimating to the system as is.

SineMora
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:20 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by SineMora » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:00 am

Kerensky wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:52 pm
That is an impressively large encirclement, I wouldn't exactly call that simple to create. You have very long chains of units holding it together. And you have the key ingredient to making the best encirclements, the terrain helping you out. In this case, the English Channel. But yes, to make it that large, you've definitely got some extremely weak links in those chains. Could be nice for the AI to try and take advantage of... but in this case, I believe the remaining Allied units aren't really suited for counter attack. I see only a few towed units and scatterings of infantry.
The English Channel being where it is makes it rather simple, as you only have to drop off a few units and avoid going near the Belgian force. To elaborate on my earlier post, there's a cluster of Belgian troops around the artillery piece, you just can't see them because of the FoW. I don't believe the AI should attempt to force this encirclement either, because having lost its recon it can't see any of the units holding it together and would have to go in blind. It should abandon its position and fall back, though, because having been outflanked while in an undefensible position it makes no sense at all to stay put while losing the ability to fight. These particular troops aren't set to be particularly defensive either -- if you go near them they'll move out to attack, just like the recon did.
Mildly pretentious Swede. Goes by Path on most platforms, including Steam.
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=596&t=98034 -- Generalissimus AAR (no Trophies / Heroes)

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by deducter » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:19 am

I think the encirclement mechanic is a good addition to the series and really fun when you can pull it off, at least in single player. I cannot comment on MP since I have not played that.

I personally am not a big fan of the fact that all offmap hexes count as supply, but the rules are consistent and understandable once you get used to it. The manual is clear about this point; it's just not intuitive for players more familiar with other hex-based wargames. Even so, for the initial release I think the system is great. Nothing more enjoyable that pocketing a huge number of enemy units (best moment so far was Kiev).

My wish is that in a future DLC we have options for more advanced supply systems. Say a map maker has to place specific off-map supply hexes. Maybe even add an additional mode of the game where supply falls off the further your units are from supply hexes, so as to simulate logistic problems that affected all sides during this time period.

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7182
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Kerensky » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:27 am

deducter wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:19 am
My wish is that in a future DLC we have options for more advanced supply systems. Say a map maker has to place specific off-map supply hexes. Maybe even add an additional mode of the game where supply falls off the further your units are from supply hexes, so as to simulate logistic problems that affected all sides during this time period.
I have some ideas on more encirclements in the campaign experience. Definitely relying more on impassible rivers over regular rivers, and overall sparing use of supply hexes. :wink:

I think map edge will forever default to supply all sides, but I wouldn't be against the ability to configure this if desired. Set a certain map edge to a side, and represent this ownership in game by changing the border of the map.

dalfrede
Major - 8.8 cm FlaK 36
Major - 8.8 cm FlaK 36
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by dalfrede » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:59 am

An impassible hex is not a supply point.
This gives the scenario designer flexibility for creating innovative for supply.

The first mod scenario posted here had impassible edges and no supply hexes. :?
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

Dorky8
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:24 pm

Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Dorky8 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:44 pm

Nalikill wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:37 pm

No, lol, I don't work for the developers.

In re the AI though - that's my point - only the AI part of my statement was specifically addressing the AI.

In regards to multiplayer, you have to actually put forward an argument, not just say "CHANGE THIS NAO." WHY do you think the current system doesn't work? WHY do you think this would be better? etc. Which is exactly what I said.
I think your on the payroll :lol:

ok here is an example, I would never do this of there wasn't lockdown

In the MP game it is too easy to encircle and unrealistic because ZOC uses the interdict method described above and over rides an Allied unit for supply. If you used the suppress method all units are in supply.

Example 1:

River on left X - Allies O - Axis -Z are Allied encircled units under current rules, makes no sense - Sorry bold doesn't work and I have no screenshots. This and many more happened to me in games.

ZO
ZO
XXXXXX
XXXXXX

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps 2”