Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

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Horseman
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Horseman » Thu May 07, 2020 2:19 pm

Andy2012 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:50 pm
SineMora wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 3:12 pm


Kiev is one of the easiest maps in the campaign in which to enact a grand encirclement; you have plenty of auxiliaries to use and the terrain favours the Germans (major rivers and thick forests are both impassable for supply trucks).
Okay, I restarted from scratch. Again, around turn 10 I hold all river crossings and all supply hexes. My encirclement is even more complete than yours as far as I can see. There are swamps, major rivers and thick forests everywhere, yet I only get isolated encirclements of single units, not the big one I want. The AI Red Army has no supply hexes, no connection to the edge of the map (seems to be a shitty mechanic to me) but just sits there. I honestly think that there is something wrong with either that map or the encirclement mechanic. Because the way it is explained clearly does not work, as far as I can see.
Can you post some screen shots showing your encirclement? one thing to bear in mind is that there is a supply hex or 2 on cities in the eastern part of the map.

Andy2012
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Andy2012 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:16 pm

Horseman wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 2:19 pm

Can you post some screen shots showing your encirclement? one thing to bear in mind is that there is a supply hex or 2 on cities in the eastern part of the map.
Sure. And I took all supply hexes on the whole map. Either I cant see the forest for the trees here (quite possible) or this is a bug. Either way, I have Kiev and the whole area between the rivers surrounded and would by now squeeze the pocket.

Another thing: The dev may consider letting the game automatically make one high quality and a low res screenshot for uploading. (OoB does that automatically...yes, sorry. I'll stop now.)

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Last edited by Andy2012 on Thu May 07, 2020 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Andy2012
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Andy2012 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:30 pm

...and another one.
@devs: Please let me automatically have a low res screenshot for uploading. It is a bit annoying crunching them myself. Would be a cool functionality.
screenshot00005.jpg
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Andy2012
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Andy2012 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:32 pm

I hope you can see that I have the whole Red Army surrounded, yet that one gigantic encirclement I am looking for seems to elude me. I have enabled the hex grid. Can somebody spot the mistake here? Thanks.

RandomAttack
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by RandomAttack » Thu May 07, 2020 3:38 pm

On your first & last screenshot, looks like there is a one-hex gap just southeast of Kiev between the major river and your infantry. If so, that will let the entire force trace supply to a map edge...

SineMora
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by SineMora » Thu May 07, 2020 3:50 pm

Andy2012 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:32 pm
I hope you can see that I have the whole Red Army surrounded, yet that one gigantic encirclement I am looking for seems to elude me. I have enabled the hex grid. Can somebody spot the mistake here? Thanks.
Yes, you have three gaps in the line that need to be closed -- the southern road out of Kiev and two hexes over the river near Poltava (as a reminder, only major rivers block supplies; minor rivers and swamps don't).
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Andy2012
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Andy2012 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:58 pm

SineMora wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:50 pm
Andy2012 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:32 pm
I hope you can see that I have the whole Red Army surrounded, yet that one gigantic encirclement I am looking for seems to elude me. I have enabled the hex grid. Can somebody spot the mistake here? Thanks.
Yes, you have three gaps in the line that need to be closed -- the southern road out of Kiev and two hexes over the river near Poltava (as a reminder, only major rivers block supplies; minor rivers and swamps don't).
Okay, I'll try that. But I still feel that the encirclement mechanic does not work well and cannot produce a logical outcome here. I mean, the Red Army is currently supplied via a road to the edge of the map into my territory south of Kiev and via a swamp to the edge of the map I hold as well. This is just silly.

dalfrede
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by dalfrede » Thu May 07, 2020 3:58 pm

screenshot00005C.jpg
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Notice that minor rivers do not block supply, which can trace through German lines to the north edge of map.
Having seen this at Kiev as well, it was the first place I looked. :D
Have to place units around forest to block.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by SineMora » Thu May 07, 2020 4:04 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:58 pm
Notice that minor rivers do not block supply, which can trace through German lines to the north edge of map.
Having seen this at Kiev as well, it was the first place I looked. :D
Have to place units around forest to block.
On the eastern edge perhaps, but it should be fine as it is; those hexes are thick forests IIRC.
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Duedman
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Duedman » Thu May 07, 2020 4:26 pm

Kiev 1.jpg
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Kiev 2.jpg
Kiev 2.jpg (53.03 KiB) Viewed 969 times
This and the aforementioned northern swampy forest

Its actually quite simple.
Units block their own Zone of Control (hexes around them).
So 2 units cannot be more than 2 hexes away from each other or there is an opening.

South of Kiev you use the river as supply blocker. River has no Zone of control. So your unit can only leave one hex open between itself and the river.
On the other hand, the unit´east (actually: west :roll: ) of Kiev is directly next to thick forest. That is not necessary. Cycle all 3 of those Infantry units 1 hex counterclockwise and Kiev is encircled from that direction.
Last edited by Duedman on Thu May 07, 2020 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Andy2012
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Andy2012 » Thu May 07, 2020 5:51 pm

@all: Thanks guys, now I have them pinned. I had to move the units around Kiev, the Italians in the south closer to the river and cover the river in the east with my tanks and AA. Even though this now works as intended, it is still a bit illogical. I mean, they were getting resupplied over my territory and through rivers and swamps which I held.

Horseman
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Horseman » Thu May 07, 2020 6:54 pm

Andy2012 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 5:51 pm
@all: Thanks guys, now I have them pinned. I had to move the units around Kiev, the Italians in the south closer to the river and cover the river in the east with my tanks and AA. Even though this now works as intended, it is still a bit illogical. I mean, they were getting resupplied over my territory and through rivers and swamps which I held.
I asked for a screen shot but seems several others beat me to getting to the helpful part! :lol:

And yes - any map edge supply is a bit odd to say the least. I guess it ensures we don't try to encircle an enemy by leaving nothing actually facing them head on!

Actually it kind of makes sense. It does force you to at least leave screening forces. Whilst that doesn't make sense whilst thinking about supply, it does make sense in the grand scheme of things. Otherwise they could just steam forward and steal all your supplies!

Andy2012
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Andy2012 » Thu May 07, 2020 8:17 pm

Horseman wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 6:54 pm
Andy2012 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 5:51 pm
@all: Thanks guys, now I have them pinned. I had to move the units around Kiev, the Italians in the south closer to the river and cover the river in the east with my tanks and AA. Even though this now works as intended, it is still a bit illogical. I mean, they were getting resupplied over my territory and through rivers and swamps which I held.
I asked for a screen shot but seems several others beat me to getting to the helpful part! :lol:

And yes - any map edge supply is a bit odd to say the least. I guess it ensures we don't try to encircle an enemy by leaving nothing actually facing them head on!

Actually it kind of makes sense. It does force you to at least leave screening forces. Whilst that doesn't make sense whilst thinking about supply, it does make sense in the grand scheme of things. Otherwise they could just steam forward and steal all your supplies!
Okay, I won it now and it was still a grind. What you and others wrote about the passive AI here is true. And then you still have to grind through them, for 15 turns. Thank God that is over. (Funny enough, OoB has the exact same problems on the same map. Yes, enough now. Sorry.)
I think that map edge supply should maybe be an option you can switch on or off for each map. Here, it should be switched off.
Oh, and please, devs, automatically make two versions of your screenshots. One PNG and one low res jpeg. Easier uploading without photoshopping. Thanks.

Dorky8
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Dorky8 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:06 pm


Horseman
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Horseman » Fri May 22, 2020 12:30 pm

Dorky8 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:06 pm
viewtopic.php?f=464&t=99109
Literally nothing to do with encirclement.......or to what it is you're not happy about about.

Dorky8
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Dorky8 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:42 pm

Dorky8 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:31 pm
I posted the following in another thread
Dorky8 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:21 pm
panzeh wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:25 pm


Friendly units do not negate EZOCs unless you have the perk that does this.

The reason people are having issues with encirclement is the ZOC rules are too strict. Your enemies ZOC blocks supply even if you have a unit there, therefore encircling. This makes encircling way to easy and confusing.

Excerpt from the attached article on ZOC & supply: The game would be better served with a "Suppressive" ZOC IMO

EFFECTS ON SUPPLY LINE AND RETREAT
Interdicting – Prohibits the path of retreat or supply from being traced through an Enemy Controlled hex regardless of the presence of Friendly units.’
Suppressive – Prohibits the path of supply or retreat from being traced through an Enemy controlled hex if the hex is not occupied by Friendly Units.
Permissive – Does not affect the path of supply or retreat in any way.






https://wargamehq.com/mechanics-monday- ... ol-basics/

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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Mojko » Fri May 29, 2020 11:33 pm

Can someone please explain to me what's going on with the encircled recon unit in the middle? Note that it's actually not encircled (see the details of the unit in the bottom left). The visuals for the encircled zone looks to be way off.

Image
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dalfrede
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by dalfrede » Sat May 30, 2020 1:57 am

Mojko wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 11:33 pm
Can someone please explain to me what's going on with the encircled recon unit in the middle? Note that it's actually not encircled (see the details of the unit in the bottom left). The visuals for the encircled zone looks to be way off.
The US infantry unit is encircled.
The 'envelope' shows the area of encirclement, including other US units, which in this case don't exist.
IE any units inside the envelope are encircled.
The Recon is not, so it is not included in the 'envelope'.
It is a player aid.
It allows one to see ways to break encirclement, it is not optimized for individual cases.

It just looks weird, but one gets used to it.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by Dorky8 » Sun May 31, 2020 9:49 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 1:57 am

The US infantry unit is encircled.
The 'envelope' shows the area of encirclement, including other US units, which in this case don't exist.
IE any units inside the envelope are encircled.
The Recon is not, so it is not included in the 'envelope'.
It is a player aid.
It allows one to see ways to break encirclement, it is not optimized for individual cases.

It just looks weird, but one gets used to it.
LMAO!!

ragingrondo
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Re: Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

Post by ragingrondo » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:18 pm

Mojko wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 11:33 pm
Can someone please explain to me what's going on with the encircled recon unit in the middle? Note that it's actually not encircled (see the details of the unit in the bottom left). The visuals for the encircled zone looks to be way off.

Image
Also notice the direction of the arrows in the encirclement. They point towards the encircled area and around the recon the arrows point outward, indicating the region.

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