Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:34 am

SuitedQueens wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:21 am
But your really don't need to ficus on those strats that much cause most multiplayer games are boring wide line on line clashes where players actively try to minimize thinking time on their part.
Could we not have this debate here too and just stick to answering people's questions please?

Agreed the manual needs updating, but that probably won't happen until the game is in something like a final state. Until then, people can access latest change notes through the game launcher.
SnuggleBunny's Field of Glory II / Medieval / Pike and Shot / Sengoku Jidai MP Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjUQy6dEqR53NwoGgjxixLg

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by vakarr » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:33 pm

Oh my god, I didn't realise you had to be Pythagoras to play this game!!! I probably am not the very model of an ancient major general, so I guess I'm just not acquainted enough with matters mathematical, though there seem to be many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse on this thread.

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by SuitedQueens » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:14 pm

[/quote]
vakarr wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:33 pm
Oh my god, I didn't realise you had to be Pythagoras to play this game!!! I probably am not the very model of an ancient major general, so I guess I'm just not acquainted enough with matters mathematical, though there seem to be many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse on this thread.
Its funny, cause your videos especially on cavalry provide a lot of POA/math discussion. 6 part beginner guide is nothing but math for the most part. Things I show in my responses don't require much math at all except the ability to count up to 20 and very practical in their nature. FOG 2 engine really have layers and once you condition yourself in thinking about 2 turn threats that require combining tactics like:
- disabling ZOCs by engaging with light cav mostly;
- blocking fallback and bounce off squares temporarily;
- blocking secondary ZOC squares to unlock advanced movement;
- blocking 4 AP path squares;
- doing intermediate moves that still save you charge option or unlock different charging angles;
- understanding evasion and pursuit mechanics and abusing them to your advantage (especially relevant for Medieval Knights)
to name a few you still have things to learn and ask in this thread. When you rely on pure basics to win you can't blame bad rolls. You can check what reputable source has to say on this topic: https://youtu.be/3A8rzj_VYAs?t=616
To boil it all down in one sentence: initiative and flank attacks mattermore than terrain. I just provide ways of achieving them in non-obvious and quite spectacular ways.

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by kronenblatt » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:21 pm

Please note that this is a thread for simple and short questions on FoG II rules that can be answered with a yes, no or maximum a couple of sentences.

So please post all questions that require lengthy answers, are more about tactics than rules, or that constitute actual debates and opinions, in a separate thread and not in this one. Or once a question evolves into a debate, please continue it in a separate thread or as a PM.
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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by grahamed » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:29 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:48 am
BMAXIMUS wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:55 pm
When does the free turn is actually free ?
I'm struggling to understand when I am allowed a free turn or not ( I understand it only applies to manoeuverable units within command range). However, according to the rules
Each game turn non-light units that are in command range are allowed one free turn
of up to 45 degrees.
So after moving a unit 2 cell front I have a free turn, after moving 2 cell up and 1 on the side, I get a free turn, but if move in diagonal (or move backward) I don't get the free turn. What are exactly the rules ?
In determining what APs are required for turns when making a multi-square move, the game only takes into account the overall change in direction over the entire move; it does not take into account any intermediate "turns" caused by the artificial constraints of moving on a square grid. It essentially assumes that the unit moves in a straight line from its starting position to its final position - as it would in reality - and calculates the angle between that line and a line drawn straight ahead from the unit's original position and facing. If that angle is less than 45 degrees, it is not treated as any sort of turn.

So a "knight's move" is less than 45 degrees from the original facing overall, and hence does not count as a turn, so leaves the "free" turn available to use at the end of the move.

If you move diagonally from an orthogonal facing, however, the whole move is 45 degrees from the original facing, so you have already used the "free" turn as part of the initial move.
So it is possible to move "through" a square facing in a direction which you could not actually stop short in? presumably inferring that the path actually taken by the troops is somewhat shorter than it appears on screen?

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by SuitedQueens » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:57 am

Pretty much. I guess its assumed they move in a straight line, but game can't display that graphically. Most of the time path can follow squares that, if you moved through them normally one by one, will require much more AP to reach the final square. Its a good work around that incorporates advantages of hex and square systems grids.

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:45 am

SuitedQueens wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:57 am
Pretty much. I guess its assumed they move in a straight line, but game can't display that graphically. Most of the time path can follow squares that, if you moved through them normally one by one, will require much more AP to reach the final square. Its a good work around that incorporates advantages of hex and square systems grids.
Yes, one of the design goals is to minimise the artificiality caused by map grids and the IGOUGO system.
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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by carpenkm » Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:05 pm

I just noticed in the Medieval Game that in most lists Knights and Sergeants are heavily Armoured, but in a few (my Anglo-Normans being the one where i noticed it) they are just armoured. However, they still cost 72 pts. Am i missing something or is there a difference - the only one i could see was that they dismount as spearmen, not heavy weapons. Not sure if this is the right thread - hopefully a one line answer!

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:33 pm

carpenkm wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:05 pm
I just noticed in the Medieval Game that in most lists Knights and Sergeants are heavily Armoured, but in a few (my Anglo-Normans being the one where i noticed it) they are just armoured. However, they still cost 72 pts. Am i missing something or is there a difference - the only one i could see was that they dismount as spearmen, not heavy weapons. Not sure if this is the right thread - hopefully a one line answer!
Technically this is the ancients forum, but the difference is that later knights only move 3 tiles, as opposed to the 4 of early knights.
SnuggleBunny's Field of Glory II / Medieval / Pike and Shot / Sengoku Jidai MP Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjUQy6dEqR53NwoGgjxixLg

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by carpenkm » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:24 pm

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:33 pm
carpenkm wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:05 pm
I just noticed in the Medieval Game that in most lists Knights and Sergeants are heavily Armoured, but in a few (my Anglo-Normans being the one where i noticed it) they are just armoured. However, they still cost 72 pts. Am i missing something or is there a difference - the only one i could see was that they dismount as spearmen, not heavy weapons. Not sure if this is the right thread - hopefully a one line answer!
Technically this is the ancients forum, but the difference is that later knights only move 3 tiles, as opposed to the 4 of early knights.
Excellent thank you. I should pay more attention - the Devil's in the detail!

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by grahamed » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:38 am

The attachment Screen_00000027.jpg is no longer available
Hi in the pic below why is it not legal for the red LC to move toward the friendly infantry, directly forward but it is legal for them to turn 90 deg and move? (moving directly forward does not take them into the blue enemy Cav zoc, but turning does mean they are not turning away from the LI zoc) ? I had expected their options to be straight away from the LI pr toward the friendly infantry? thanks
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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by SuitedQueens » Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:48 am

Everything according to the rules here. I created ZoC reference a long time ago, cause sometimes it really hard to figure out what gonna happen if enemy ZoC locking you from multiple directions. Sorry for the low quality screens. Many of the combos or even even simple Secondary ZoC angles are unintuitive, so I think this file will benefit everyone who are willing to play this game at higher level.

Refer to page 9 of Primary ZoC guide and page 22 of Secondary one:
https://mega.nz/file/aQgD1Y4C#7vIqMprQn ... jJqKEBklrw

You can also just move one square forward first. You will lose 45 degree free general turn, but according to the rules you will still have free any degree turn available, so you don't miss much except for the 4 AP realistically.

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:30 am

SuitedQueens wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:48 am
Everything according to the rules here. I created ZoC reference a long time ago, cause sometimes it really hard to figure out what gonna happen if enemy ZoC locking you from multiple directions. Sorry for the low quality screens. Many of the combos or even even simple Secondary ZoC angles are unintuitive, so I think this file will benefit everyone who are willing to play this game at higher level.

Refer to page 9 of Primary ZoC guide and page 22 of Secondary one:
https://mega.nz/file/aQgD1Y4C#7vIqMprQn ... jJqKEBklrw
Ah yes, that is correct. That explains it. I had forgotten that secondary ZOCs also restrict the movement of units to within 45 degrees of directly away from the secondary ZOCer.

Thanks.
Richard Bodley Scott

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by kronenblatt » Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:52 am

1. Can charging cavalry fall back through an enemy unit's ZoC, or does that effectively prevent such a fallback?

2. Does the same apply for enemy units' primary and secondary ZoCs?
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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:05 am

kronenblatt wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:52 am
1. Can charging cavalry fall back through an enemy unit's ZoC, or does that effectively prevent such a fallback?
It currently prevents it in Ancients (v1.5.36) but not in Medieval (v1.1.6)

This change will go into the next Ancients update.
2. Does the same apply for enemy units' primary and secondary ZoCs?
Yes.
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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by SuitedQueens » Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:23 pm

kronenblatt wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:52 am
1. Can charging cavalry fall back through an enemy unit's ZoC, or does that effectively prevent such a fallback?
To prevent fallback you need to be in flanking position even if you arrived at one at the end of your movement action and cast primary or secondary ZoC on enemy cav unit. This is due to AI ZoC blindness I described on multiple occasions here. One of the best examples of that behavior is blocking light foot pass through action. Its interesting that if you cast ZoC just behind enemy cav they will fallback only 1 square cause of the interactions described above.
rbodleyscott wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:05 am
It currently prevents it in Ancients (v1.5.36) but not in Medieval (v1.1.6)

This change will go into the next Ancients update.
So, I guess my MP experience will be reduced to Hotseat on 1.5.36 then. This change removes so many cav + infantry interactions. Some players might not know that, but if you don't have "threaten flank" modifier on enemy cav they will never evade if you charge them with infantry. That way you can trap enemy cavalry by getting in flanking position on the same turn before charging with infantry cause enemy cav ZoC blind and can't figure out that they can't fall back beforehand. Another layer to this interaction is only non-lights can block fallback by ZoC'ing, while lights need to waste more movement point to body block. It's like taking away huge part of the game. I don't own Medieval now, but the fact that no one complained about it is mind boggling.

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by kraff » Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:06 pm

I would appreciate if anyone explained the situation on attached screenshot, please. :)

What constitutes "lost close combat round" in such a situation? In other words: I didn't lose a single elephant, so... why did I lose the round?

Why is even such a light unit allowed to charge anything that isn't light troops? I mean, realistically - how would that particular unit do any harm to anything "heavier" (in terms of armour and weapons) if it is only armed with bows?
If light HA unit is allowed to charge/attack elephants, or actually any troops, why aren't light foot skirmishers with bow allowed to do so?
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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:12 am

kraff wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:06 pm
I would appreciate if anyone explained the situation on attached screenshot, please. :)

What constitutes "lost close combat round" in such a situation? In other words: I didn't lose a single elephant, so... why did I lose the round?
Because elephants only have 20 elephants in the unit, their "casualties" are often lost as a result of rounding. The game therefore keeps track of fractional casualties - which you can regard as "wounds", or, since they aren't carried forward to following turns, "panic points".

They can therefore lose a close combat, or suffer a cohesion test from shooting, without actually losing any elephants.

Losing a combat is not determined from casualties anyway, it is determined from an internal "damage" result. Casualties are only determined after that combat result has been decided, with an adjustment favouring the victor. It is done that way because in the days of hand to hand combat by formed bodies of troops, the most casualties occurred to the losing side after they began to falter.
Why is even such a light unit allowed to charge anything that isn't light troops? I mean, realistically - how would that particular unit do any harm to anything "heavier" (in terms of armour and weapons) if it is only armed with bows?
If light HA unit is allowed to charge/attack elephants, or actually any troops, why aren't light foot skirmishers with bow allowed to do so?
Because we deemed that light horse would be more likely to charge non-light troops in open terrain (their natural habitat) than light foot would. Light foot can attack non light troops in rough or difficult terrain (their natural habitat).

This is our interpretation of history.
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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by vakarr » Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:29 am

SuitedQueens wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:23 pm

Some players might not know that, but if you don't have "threaten flank" modifier on enemy cav
That modifier only applies to medium and heavy infantry

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Re: Quick Questions Thread on Rules

Post by SuitedQueens » Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:22 am

True. What I meant is if you start in position where such modifier would otherwise apply Enemy Cav will evade your infantry. But if you move in in this position at the same turn as charge they won't, cause they are thinking that they can fallback.

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