Epic battles not as good as DLC campaigns

[MarkShot]

I have tried 5 epic battles so far.

They seem to be very shallow maps with long straight opposing lines. (I can say nothing about their historic accuracy.) But from a gaming point of view, they do not show off the strengths of this engine.

I was just curious if I am the only one who feels this way? (prior to playing them, I was expecting them to be more like included scenarios in the CM series)

Thanks.

[kronenblatt]

I agree: mostly two long straight opposing lines (and I don't dispute historical accuracy either). So I haven't so far been hooked on any of them. Unless there's any epic battle that can truly be recommended by anyone as offering something special?

[Paul59]

What exactly do you want from an Epic battle?

This is a question I have wanted to ask for a long time, but I suspect every person will want something different!

[kronenblatt]

What exactly do you want from an Epic battle?

This is a question I have wanted to ask for a long time, but I suspect every person will want something different!

For me personally, a custom battle but on a grander scale, with a lot of maneuvering, etc. But I also guess that it makes a difference whether playing against the AI or another player, so should probably give them another go, because really haven't been giving them a fair chance.

So which 2-3 epic battles in Ancients do you recommend the most, Paul? And why? (I'm sure that I've been answered before, but too long ago for me to remember.)

Ideally I'd also like to play a string of epic battles with the same theme, much like a campaign or similar: Argentoratum 357 AD - Frigidus 394 AD is a good example with 4 epic battles. Or Charioneia 86 BC - Thapsus 46 BC with 5! I now see that there are plenty of those: Macedonians' Chaironeia 338 BC - Hydaspes 326 BC (5!), and Byzantine Dara 530 AD - The Volturnus 554 AD (4!).

[Gnaeus]

I had assumed that the epic battles are intended to be more historical and the limited scope for maneuver is designed to prevent wide flanking attacks against the AI.

[Paul59]

For me personally, a custom battle but on a grander scale, with a lot of maneuvering, etc. But I also guess that it makes a difference whether playing against the AI or another player, so should probably give them another go, because really haven't been giving them a fair chance.

A few days ago, there was someone on another thread recently complaining that for him the Epic battles were too much like a custom battle! In his view, Epic battles should be more constrained, so that they force the player to use the historical tactics. So you see, there is no pleasing everyone!

Personally, I think I have a lot of sympathy with that view. Although I can see the attraction of giving the chance for lots of manoeuvre, it destroys the historical authenticity of the scenario.

So which 2-3 epic battles in Ancients do you recommend the most, Paul? And why? (I'm sure that I've been answered before, but too long ago for me to remember.)

I'll have a think about that, and come back to you.

[MarkShot]

Paul,

I don't think it is a big deal.

What are we talking about 12 battles per DLC? In a game that offers infinite replay.

It doesn't break anything for me. My point was more when you use the word "Epic", and then have such dull template/presentation ... it gives people the wrong impress about the game if they start there first. Because the game is truly brilliant.

Myself, I will probably just skip them, but I was trying to indicate that they were not on par with the rest of the product.

[Paul59]

Paul,

I don't think it is a big deal.

What are we talking about 12 battles per DLC? In a game that offers infinite replay.

It doesn't break anything for me. My point was more when you use the word "Epic", and then have such dull template/presentation ... it gives people the wrong impress about the game if they start there first. Because the game is truly brilliant.

Myself, I will probably just skip them, but I was trying to indicate that they were not on par with the rest of the product.

That's fine, but what exactly do you think is wrong the Epic battles, and how could they be improved?

I'm not personally offended, I probably didn't design the scenarios that you have tried, but it would be nice to know how future Epic battles can be improved.

[deeter]

I think Epic battles are great (although not balanced) fun. The lack of terrain is because that's what the historical commanders sought -- unlike custom games which have terrain that is way too busy and with comparatively tiny armies.

I think these are best played as paired games against humans. Magnesia is one of my favorites.

Deeter

[BMAXIMUS]

I actually play mostly epic battles (both SP and MP), and I hate campains
The reason I hate campains is because I don't want the battle I'm playing to depend on the result of the previous battle, as simple as that.
I'm however interested in playing all the battles of a campain and a "no campain" mode would be nice or at least to have an easy way of selecting them in the quick battle menu.

What exactly do you want from an Epic battle?

This is a question I have wanted to ask for a long time, but I suspect every person will want something different!

I play Epic battles for different reasons, the main one is because I don't have to do the force selection and they are reproductible, so I can try things and see what happen. I usually do the battle a few times vs the AI (both side) and when I win in Governor I'll try a real opponents.
Another reason is to "study" the battle as such because it is a famous one and corresponds to a well known strategy. Take the battle of Cannae, it is a famous for its double envelopment and it is interesting to see if I can reproduce it (I found it actually really hard), if it works and what happen if you don't do it (do you lose badly ?) etc ...
It is also interesting to try to what the roman could have done against it (assuming the AI reproduce the tactics).
For that, I need the force selection and initial deployment to be as accurate as possible (and I trust the FOG team to have done their home work), and then to have as much freedom as possible. I want to be able to try things from a starting position not watch a movie reproducing the battle as in happend : If I need to, I can do it in hot seat mode.
The third reason I do epic battle is when I found a setup to practice or improve on some things. For example I realized the other day that part of the dilema in FOG2 is that it encourages at the same time strong units (which are hard to break) but also rewards flanking by many weak units.
For example the byzantine vanguards are indestructable but can be broken in 3 turns by three unite of spearmen (for the same cost or even less). To practive such things finding epic battles with only a few units of different types is great, I'm thinking of Chaironeia (if I remember well) which is basiccally offensive spearmen vs macedonian phalanx or Marathon phalanx vs immortals . I'm playing Thapsus at the moment superior romans vs numerous romans which is great.

Unless there's any epic battle that can truly be recommended by anyone as offering something special?

I tried to start a thread on this topic a few weeks ago but without success.

[SimonLancaster]

I agree that some of the Epic battles seem quite dull. Those Biblical or early Classical battles with long lines of hoplites are not so interesting.

I think some of my favourite Epic battles are the Roman v Carthaginian battles. You have two heavyweights going at it and most of those battles offer a lot of scope for manoeuvring. I only play MP battles and not against the AI.

Bunny is creating a series of YouTube videos on the Epic battles which might be worth watching!

[kronenblatt]

So which 2-3 epic battles in Ancients do you recommend the most, Paul? And why? (I'm sure that I've been answered before, but too long ago for me to remember.)

I'll have a think about that, and come back to you.

Thanks, Paul! Meanwhile I'll be trying out Raphia now, with/against deeter.

[MarkShot]

Paul,

So, you are right, all have different opinions.

Let me not say epic battles, but instead canned scenarios which come with each DLC.

What should they be?

I think they should be a tour of the armies/units which come with the DLC and their strengths and weaknesses. So, the canned battles should give me a sense with one click what I just purchased. I care less about specific history and more about the value, and options I just paid money for.

(just my opinion --- others certainly like it as is)

[Athos1660]

Maybe it is just a matter of word. Maybe the word 'Epic' creates an unrealistic expectation for some.

When you hover the mouse over the 'Epic battles' button, you get the description 'Preconstructed historical scenarios'.
Those 'Preconstructed historical scenarios' were called 'Historical' (battles) in Pike and Shot.

They gather user-made scenarios (including empty maps with a couple of units for testing) and historical battles made by Byzantine Games.

Maybe the in-game button should be simply called 'Scenarios' (and the historical battles in the dlc/base game descriptions 'historical scenarios') ?

[MarkShot]

Yes. I think Athos is on to something. Perception is part of this. I also think that scenarios or campaigns which are user created should in some way be denoted. Perhaps, a separate menu item is too much (maybe just different color).

[TheGrayMouser]

Paul,

So, you are right, all have different opinions.

Let me not say epic battles, but instead canned scenarios which come with each DLC.

What should they be?

I think they should be a tour of the armies/units which come with the DLC and their strengths and weaknesses. So, the canned battles should give me a sense with one click what I just purchased. I care less about specific history and more about the value, and options I just paid money for.

(just my opinion --- others certainly like it as is)

Mark, so what would that look like? ( ie your definition of a canned battle) I'm not familiar with CM as in you OP , I assume Combat Mission. Sounds kinda sounds like what you already get with the Custom battles...except they would be fixed armies/ deployment and maps man made instead of random? Basically equal point "non-historic" battles? I feel like FOG1 had some of those and they were called Table Top battles or soemthing similar? , but then again the random battle generator was not very good in that old gem of a game.

@Paul, the Epic battle imho are just fine as is. They're clearly historical battles despite the marketing moniker. As you say not everyone is interested in all genres, just like many player will not purchase certain DLC's or fight in/with certain "era's/armies as its not their cup of tea. I find there is MORE than enough room to maneuver and try different tactics in replays in the Epic battles. Its often a nice change from the never ending bilateral diagonal rush to the flanks ( or hills/forrest) made by both sides in almost every custom battle haha!

[kronenblatt]

The Epic battle imho are just fine as is. They're clearly historical battles despite the marketing moniker. As you say not everyone is interested in all genres, just like many player will not purchase certain DLC's or fight in/with certain "era's/armies as its not their cup of tea. I find there is MORE than enough room to maneuver and try different tactics in replays in the Epic battles. Its often a nice change from the never ending bilateral diagonal rush to the flanks ( or hills/forrest) made by both sides in almost every custom battle haha!

Hi Steve. Do you play Epic Battles mainly against the AI or other humans? If the former, is that then the base game's AI or the Rise of AI's AI?

[TheGrayMouser]

The Epic battle imho are just fine as is. They're clearly historical battles despite the marketing moniker. As you say not everyone is interested in all genres, just like many player will not purchase certain DLC's or fight in/with certain "era's/armies as its not their cup of tea. I find there is MORE than enough room to maneuver and try different tactics in replays in the Epic battles. Its often a nice change from the never ending bilateral diagonal rush to the flanks ( or hills/forrest) made by both sides in almost every custom battle haha!

Hi Steve. Do you play Epic Battles mainly against the AI or other humans? If the former, is that then the base game's AI or the Rise of AI's AI?

Probably an equal mix of both I would say, although I have'nt played any in some time. I have never tried the AI mod, but wasnt aware it worked for the Epic battles.

[kronenblatt]

Maybe it doesn't? I don't know.

[Paul59]

I also think that scenarios or campaigns which are user created should in some way be denoted. Perhaps, a separate menu item is too much (maybe just different color).

We are experimenting with something just like this in the next update for FOG2 Medieval. It might be introduced to Ancients in the future.