Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
MVP7
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Re: Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Post by MVP7 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:46 am

From what I have read, fighting cavalry with cavalry was preferable but light infantry was also used to screen flanks from cavalry and other would be flankers. Driving the lights off takes a while and might break the cohesion of cavalry formation in the process. The lights can't just be ignored either as they would be tossing javelins at the backs of the cavalry as they are trying to engage the infantry with their own javelins. Mixing light infantry and cavalry on the flanks was pretty common and works well in FoG2 as well.

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Re: Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Post by sIg3b » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:26 am

(Cunningcairn, Alex at Gaugamela=>) AfaIk, his (few) light infantry were used against the chariots (only). There was way too much Persian cavalry to frustrate it with lights, even in FoG2.

(Lights are very dark green, chariots white, scythed chariots gray.)
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Re: Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Post by SLancaster » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:32 am

I think cavalry is fairly represented in the game. Head-on charges v infantry is not always as you might like but that is probably as it should be. From the middle of the game on cavalry becomes very powerful because of all the flank charges it can get which often decide a battle.

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Re: Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Post by Gaznak » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:03 pm

Xenophon has a body of peltasts badly beating up Tisaphernes' horse Cunaxa.

I recently read Robert Drews' book on the bronze age collapse, where his thesis is that the end of massed chariot warfare came about when they were completely outmatched by clouds of aggressive skirmishers who would shower the approaching chariots with light javelins to wound the horses, then rapidly close to contact with bucklers and swords. The Egyptians were able to survive by making a massive infantry recruitment drive and fielding their chariots as a reserve or flank instead of as the main fighting force, which is the kind of chariot army we see in Rise of Persia currently.

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Re: Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Post by kronenblatt » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:02 pm

Gaznak wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:03 pm
Xenophon has a body of peltasts badly beating up Tisaphernes' horse Cunaxa.

I recently read Robert Drews' book on the bronze age collapse, where his thesis is that the end of massed chariot warfare came about when they were completely outmatched by clouds of aggressive skirmishers who would shower the approaching chariots with light javelins to wound the horses, then rapidly close to contact with bucklers and swords. The Egyptians were able to survive by making a massive infantry recruitment drive and fielding their chariots as a reserve or flank instead of as the main fighting force, which is the kind of chariot army we see in Rise of Persia currently.
Thanks, Gaznak: Very interesting and fascinating thesis that I may be interested in reading more about! Is the book itself any good? What's the title?
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Re: Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Post by Gaznak » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:35 pm

kronenblatt wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:02 pm
Gaznak wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:03 pm
Xenophon has a body of peltasts badly beating up Tisaphernes' horse Cunaxa.

I recently read Robert Drews' book on the bronze age collapse, where his thesis is that the end of massed chariot warfare came about when they were completely outmatched by clouds of aggressive skirmishers who would shower the approaching chariots with light javelins to wound the horses, then rapidly close to contact with bucklers and swords. The Egyptians were able to survive by making a massive infantry recruitment drive and fielding their chariots as a reserve or flank instead of as the main fighting force, which is the kind of chariot army we see in Rise of Persia currently.
Thanks, Gaznak: Very interesting and fascinating thesis that I may be interested in reading more about! Is the book itself any good? What's the title?
The book is The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe ca. 1200 B.C. The book is basically 1) Enumerating the level of collapse in different areas 2) Dispensing with alternate explanations (drought/migrations/earthquakes) 3) Analysis of changes in weapons technology 4) Analysis of changes in military tactics. His idea is that the professional "barbarian" forces employed as chariot runners figured out that they could handle the chariots more or less on their own, a few exploratory attacks like the sack of Thebes in greece revealed that states defended by chariots were to a large degree paper tigers, and this news spread around the Mediterranean leading to a rapid collapse of states as their chariot forces were destroyed and their cities sacked and burned by raiders.

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Re: Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Post by kongxinga » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:54 pm

Apologies for the Necro.

I went and read "The End of the Bronze Age" . While the author keeps calling the non close order, javelin swordsmen who he claims defeated chariot armies "skirmishers", upon closer inspection these are not light foot skirmishers at all.

In game, these seems closer to Warrior, Impact Foot, Swordsmen, protected, regular. Since he describes their tactics as throwing their 1 or 2 javelins, hitting and stopping a horse, then rushing to the immobilized chariot and cutting the archer and driver up before retrieving his javelins (he notes the lack of barbs). These countered chariots as they were nimble enough to avoid being run down by chariots (chariots had wide turn radius), and presented small targets compared to the chariots. These are warriors as they are not in close order, and were looser than the medium foot order. Protected cause shield and important bits of armor/helmet. I would not label these as skirmishing light foot, since who has heard of skirmishers who are supposed to press the attack in melee aggressively (author uses the term "swarms") rather than stand and trade fire. So their javelin throw and charge might be closer to our favourite legions than your Jav Skirmishers. These are swordsmen, since they carried swords and used swords to great effect, cutting up the bronze age empires who did not have good melee infantry.

He notes later evolutions during the iron age were of heavy close order infantry to counter these looser, independent minded units. Warriors suffer cohesion test upon losing melee to heavy foot (iirc), so that sounds about right. And even in Sengoku Jidai, warriors could charge Cav.

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Re: Infantry charging heavy cavalry?

Post by Gaznak » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:06 pm

kongxinga wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:54 pm
Apologies for the Necro.

I went and read "The End of the Bronze Age" . While the author keeps calling the non close order, javelin swordsmen who he claims defeated chariot armies "skirmishers", upon closer inspection these are not light foot skirmishers at all.

In game, these seems closer to Warrior, Impact Foot, Swordsmen, protected, regular. Since he describes their tactics as throwing their 1 or 2 javelins, hitting and stopping a horse, then rushing to the immobilized chariot and cutting the archer and driver up before retrieving his javelins (he notes the lack of barbs). These countered chariots as they were nimble enough to avoid being run down by chariots (chariots had wide turn radius), and presented small targets compared to the chariots. These are warriors as they are not in close order, and were looser than the medium foot order. Protected cause shield and important bits of armor/helmet. I would not label these as skirmishing light foot, since who has heard of skirmishers who are supposed to press the attack in melee aggressively (author uses the term "swarms") rather than stand and trade fire. So their javelin throw and charge might be closer to our favourite legions than your Jav Skirmishers. These are swordsmen, since they carried swords and used swords to great effect, cutting up the bronze age empires who did not have good melee infantry.

He notes later evolutions during the iron age were of heavy close order infantry to counter these looser, independent minded units. Warriors suffer cohesion test upon losing melee to heavy foot (iirc), so that sounds about right. And even in Sengoku Jidai, warriors could charge Cav.
All well argued points. I think the issue with classification of such a force in FOG2 ruleset is that impact foot isn't a great counter to light chariots, who will just evade away. Better quality velites/euzenoi might be a vague approximation. They are .50 swordsmen and protected. Give them superior quality, and they can stand against light chariots at impact, throw javelins at them, and .50 sword lets them fight them in melee.

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