I've struggled hard to like this game...

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
AlexDetrojan
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I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by AlexDetrojan » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:43 am

...and I don't want to come off whiney(but probably do) and I appreciate Richard Bodley Scotts(and his team) creating this game...to me it has so much potential, but falls short of his Magnum Opus Pike and Shot. There is one big issue I have with this game(and it's a deal breaker for me) that detract from the overall 'immursiveness' and enjoyment of this great game. Please understand, I am not bashing RBS or the game really, I am just so frustrated that I can not enjoy it very much...and I want to enjoy it. So folks, please don't roast me over this. So here goes. As had been mentioned in the past in another thread, I find that in a melee battle when you are fighting an opponent that is already fragmented, whether it is only with one of your own units(but more frustratingly when it is multiple of my own units) a 'held firm' notification comes up so much, even with huge losses indicated in red numbers by this fragmented unit, that it doesn't drop a cohesion level and break. This happens all the time, not just once in a while in an occasional game, but many, many times in each and every game, and in many instances, turn after turn in that particular melee. I played a game last night where 3 of my armored Sarmatian Lancers battled a fragmented Bosphoran light foot archer unit for two turns in clear terrain, no losses at all for my Lancer with nothing but 'held firm' each round of combat! In what universe is this reasonable or even remotely possible? This is completely beyond belief and in my opinion quite ahistorical. It's like having a Thermopylae last stand in everyone of these occasions! Now please, I don't want people giving me one-off examples in historical battles of this happening. Of course, there are uber heroic fights in occasional battles, but in every battle and numerous times within each battle?! So Richard was kind enough to explain to me the rational and the mechanics that come about with this result...and as in the previous post, we agreed to disagree. I really don't in the end expect this to be changed for one player, where it appears that hundreds of others are o.k. with this. What I would like Richard is a fix for this for me. If you can, walk me through which files and procedures are necessary to change this so that the 'held firm' outcome when battling hopelessly outnumbered fragmented units actually drop a cohesion level and break. If there is a fix, I expect that I will not be able to play any multiplayer games as there will be a compatibility conflict...I am willing to forgo playing multiplayer just to be able to enjoy playing this game again. Sorry for the long rant, but honestly I am at my wits end. Thanks for listening.
Cheers
Alex

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by Femto » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:04 am

Alex, I feel your frustration.

But the game's cohesion test is designed to prevent immediate rout of a ganged-up unit. Manual P.87 says "a unit cannot drop cohesion twice in the same turn from shooting, nor from impact close combat, nor continuing close combat. (But can drop once for each, and in some circumstances can double drop). "

And the system retains the CT dice roll for the duration of the the turn. Manual P.86 says "As a unit may have to take multiple cohesion tests for the same reason in the same turn, the random cohesion test score for each of shooting and close combat is retained for the whole turn."
So if the unit question rolls 4 out of 2d6, it holds firm unless some modifiers are newly applied to tip the scale.

Yes, I do agree it is sometimes frustrating. But I also believe it is a sensible design especially in view of multi-playability.
As for the fix, I suggest globally-moding \Data\scripts\MoraleTools.BSF to your liking. Since global-modding will not change vanilla files, it will not impede your participation in multiplayers.

I will post a follow-up when I go home.

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:54 am

As I have explained before, a unit which Fragmented from close combat this turn is not heroically passing multiple cohesion tests from subsequent close combats in the same turn. What is actually happening is that all of the combats are really occurring simultaneously. The game therefore makes the losing unit effectively take a single cohesion test with interim progress reports to the player. The final result is the worst that applies after all close combats have been resolved for the turn.

This models what happens in the tabletop game - a single test is taken after all close combats are resolved for the turn phase. This is because all of the combats are really happening simultaneously, even though they have to be adjudicated one at a time.

Statistically, if there were multiple independent cohesion tests for close combat in the same turn, units would break much faster than intended. The whole cohesion test system would have to be heavily rebalanced.

I should also mention that Pike & Shot works in exactly the same way. It just isn't as noticeable because there are fewer close combats.
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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by Femto » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:24 am

Find the folder C:\Users\XXXX(your PC name)\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2. Create layered folders in there as "\MyMod\Data\scripts" so the pass would be:
C:\Users\ XXXX(your PC name)\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\MODS\ MyMod \Data\scripts

Copy the MoraleTools.BSF from \Field of Glory II\Data\scripts and paste it to the newly created folder. Open the file with notepad++ and edit.

What and how to edit is entirely up to your taste.

If you want light troops to be less resilient, add following lines above "// Shooting test" at line 257.

// Light Troops are less resilient.
if ((IsUnitSquadType(me, "Light_Foot") == 1) || (IsUnitSquadType(me, "Light_Horse") == 1))
{
modifiers -= 1;
Log("Light troops are wobbling -1", me);
}

If you want mounting casualties to be more telling, increase the modifiers (currently -1 each) set between line 223 and 237.

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by GamerMan » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:44 pm

Would it be possible/worth doing to change the cohesion notification that pops up for units? Perhaps the holds steady note, when the game reuses the same die, could say "no change" or something. Not sure how much more clear it would be, but i don't imagine it would hurt

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:58 pm

GamerMan wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:44 pm
Would it be possible/worth doing to change the cohesion notification that pops up for units? Perhaps the holds steady note, when the game reuses the same die, could say "no change" or something. Not sure how much more clear it would be, but i don't imagine it would hurt.
It could be done, but would that solve the OP's issue?
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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by MVP7 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:16 pm

Messages like 'no change' and 'already dropped' would be nice. Are the CT calculations deliberately hidden in combat log or could they be made more transparent to the player?

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:17 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:16 pm
Messages like 'no change' and 'already dropped' would be nice. Are the CT calculations deliberately hidden in combat log or could they be made more transparent to the player?
NDA applies.
Richard Bodley Scott

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by AlexDetrojan » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:01 pm

Femto wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:24 am
Find the folder C:\Users\XXXX(your PC name)\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2. Create layered folders in there as "\MyMod\Data\scripts" so the pass would be:
C:\Users\ XXXX(your PC name)\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\MODS\ MyMod \Data\scripts

Copy the MoraleTools.BSF from \Field of Glory II\Data\scripts and paste it to the newly created folder. Open the file with notepad++ and edit.

What and how to edit is entirely up to your taste.

If you want light troops to be less resilient, add following lines above "// Shooting test" at line 257.

// Light Troops are less resilient.
if ((IsUnitSquadType(me, "Light_Foot") == 1) || (IsUnitSquadType(me, "Light_Horse") == 1))
{
modifiers -= 1;
Log("Light troops are wobbling -1", me);
}

If you want mounting casualties to be more telling, increase the modifiers (currently -1 each) set between line 223 and 237.
So Femto, I would have to do this for each troop type then? There is no 'universal' script then that could be adjusted for all troop types?

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by AlexDetrojan » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:14 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:54 am
As I have explained before, a unit which Fragmented from close combat this turn is not heroically passing multiple cohesion tests from subsequent close combats in the same turn. What is actually happening is that all of the combats are really occurring simultaneously. The game therefore makes the losing unit effectively take a single cohesion test with interim progress reports to the player. The final result is the worst that applies after all close combats have been resolved for the turn.

This models what happens in the tabletop game - a single test is taken after all close combats are resolved for the turn phase. This is because all of the combats are really happening simultaneously, even though they have to be adjudicated one at a time.

Statistically, if there were multiple independent cohesion tests for close combat in the same turn, units would break much faster than intended. The whole cohesion test system would have to be heavily rebalanced.

I should also mention that Pike & Shot works in exactly the same way. It just isn't as noticeable because there are fewer close combats.
Thanks Richard, you were kind enough to explain this in our previous post and I understand the underlying mechanics of the situation...I still find it unsatisfactory though. So no easy fix just for me is possible then? As for P&S I respectfully disagree. You of course have the inside edge on P&S and it's workings(I on the other hand just play it and enjoy it immensely)but I can't think of any examples where a fragmented unit in P&S holding out turn after turn of multiple melees like in FOG2 not dropping the final cohesion level and breaking...I say this honestly, otherwise I would have the same issue with P&S as I have with FOG2.
Cheers
Alex

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:09 am

Alex, your perception of a difference between the two is simply wrong. Pike and Shot does use the exact same calculations. If you're seeing a discrepancy, it's because of the type of troops being used -

1) Many FoG2 armies have lots of troops of Superior or higher quality, who pass more tests.
2) In Pike and Shot, there is a lot,(A LOT) more missile fire going on, particularly musketry, which is very deadly. Often in PnS, by the time units close into melee they have been significantly weakened by missile fire, adding substantial negative modifiers to cohesion tests.
3) I suspect that if FoG2 simply didn't show the cohesion test text, you would not be having so much of a problem with it, or it would be easier to see the similarity if PnS also showed said text.

Try playing Indian vs Indian in FoG2. Lots of average troops, clouds of arrows = massive chain routs when things go wrong.

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by Femto » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:16 am

Alex, a global mod applies to every game of single-player. So yes, global here means universal.
You simply have to edit a single file (in this case MoraleTools.BSF).

The first change I suggested will apply to light troops making their CT at -1.
Second change will apply to all units.

Oh and I forgot to mention. You have to activate the mod from lower left corner of the main menu.
Last edited by Femto on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by Cunningcairn » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:58 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:54 am
As I have explained before, a unit which Fragmented from close combat this turn is not heroically passing multiple cohesion tests from subsequent close combats in the same turn. What is actually happening is that all of the combats are really occurring simultaneously.

Richard I understand that all the combats in a single round are only tested once. It makes perfect sense and I like it. However the problem is that this occurs in multiple rounds. As per AlexDetrojan's example I often have a number of expensive troops held up for 2 to 3 rounds by a single fragmented opponent. The worst are the Roman Raw troops who become supermen when fragmented against my troops. I hope this does not generate a diatribe from certain players regarding the psychological affects of RNG on humans because this is actually happening and far too frequently. I understand probability and that the Raw fragmented troop can throw 6's every turn but surely there can be penalties added to the fragmented unit for each round it is fighting. After all it is fragmented which means that the men are not in order or a good psychological state. So why so much fortitude then?

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by MikeC_81 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:46 am

I am sure Pete can run a test :lol: :lol:
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by Cunningcairn » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:03 am

MikeC_81 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:46 am
I am sure Pete can run a test :lol: :lol:
There is no need for a test. The double drops were tested with warband and all it did is show that the probability is as expected but the problem is that that probability is too high. The same in this case where fragmented (often Raw) troops stand for too many rounds against superior troops in superior numbers. The probability of it happening is not being questioned but rather it is a plee to remedy the situation. Players are experiencing results that don't make sense that they are not happy with them. This is happening in isolation without prior consultation between players.

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by Geffalrus » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:34 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:03 am
MikeC_81 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:46 am
I am sure Pete can run a test :lol: :lol:
There is no need for a test. The double drops were tested with warband and all it did is show that the probability is as expected but the problem is that that probability is too high. The same in this case where fragmented (often Raw) troops stand for too many rounds against superior troops in superior numbers. The probability of it happening is not being questioned but rather it is a plee to remedy the situation. Players are experiencing results that don't make sense that they are not happy with them. This is happening in isolation without prior consultation between players.
As annoying as it is, I find it rather historically realistic, considering how much stock the ancients put in oracles, auguries, divine intervention, and so forth. Sometimes the dice just hate you.

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by vakarr » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:48 am

yes it's annoying when it happens to you, but I don't want everything to be entirely predictable, it's more fun this way!

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:26 am

Geffalrus wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:34 am
Sometimes the dice just hate you.
Amen.

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:44 am

AlexDetrojan wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:43 am
This happens all the time, not just once in a while in an occasional game, but many, many times in each and every game, and in many instances, turn after turn in that particular melee. I played a game last night where 3 of my armored Sarmatian Lancers battled a fragmented Bosphoran light foot archer unit for two turns in clear terrain, no losses at all for my Lancer with nothing but 'held firm' each round of combat! In what universe is this reasonable or even remotely possible?
And then you compare your situation with the beginning of a war band battle, where fresh and completely undamaged units fragment quite regularly on impact and are then routed on the next turn causing cohesion tests to be taken by adjacent friendly troops. Within the same period of time (in game turns) it takes for 3 Sarmatian lancers to destroy the Bosporan skirmishers, a whole wing or centre of a war band army (among the most volatile units in the game) can be completely destroyed as a coherent force. I just think the range of possible outcomes here is too wide to retain any credibility. Most fragmented troops hit by a second enemy unit should probably automatically rout (maybe superior troops shouldn't), and fragmented skirmishers being attacked by more than one cavalry unit in the open should definitely do so.

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Re: I've struggled hard to like this game...

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:01 am

There is an irreconcilable difference of opinion between those who want more predictability in combat results, and those who are happy with the current level of unpredictability.

If we bow to the pressure for more predictability, we displease the players who actively like the lack of complete predictability.

It is just a matter of personal preference. We cannot please everybody.

The current level of predictability/unpredictability fits our design goals. and we have no immediate plans to change it.
Richard Bodley Scott

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