Future DLC?

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
Bladeheart
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Re: Future DLC?

Post by Bladeheart » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:27 pm

Mord wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:25 am
Bladeheart wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:41 pm
I would suggest it is not unreasonable to enquire about further support,

I don't think anyone said otherwise but when you act like your question was being dodged with a non-answer it comes off a bit snarky. And btw you got the same basic answer I got when I asked this question a month before they announced Wolves. Have patience, we'll know eventually. I ain't worried.
Having invested in the two previous versions of this game only to find them dropped as detailed above and, the increasing gap in between the release of DLC I am cautious before recommending it to my friend.
Having had some dealings with 'Richard' some 30 years plus ago I am aware of his credentials (SoA, etc.) But ultimately it is not that gentleman who decides whether Slitherine continues to support FoG2 and to what level.
So, with all due respect it was ' ... dodged with a non-answer ...', which is an answer in itself, and thus responded to in the same vain.

EDIT: Typo

lapdog666
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Re: Future DLC?

Post by lapdog666 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:08 pm

dlc coming before end of this year, worry not


(1000+ AD medieval theme)

Mord
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Re: Future DLC?

Post by Mord » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Bladeheart wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:27 pm

Having invested in the two previous versions of this game only to find them dropped as detailed above and, the increasing gap in between the release of DLC I am cautious before recommending it to my friend.

So, with all due respect it was ' ... dodged with a non-answer ...', which is an answer in itself, and thus responded to in the same vain.

EDIT: Typo
Well then, point your friend in the direction of the 1.5.18 patch released in August and the 1.5.19 being beta-ed as we speak and consider them non-answers which are answers, as well. There are ways games are supported other than DLC if people pay attention. But man, 3 1/2 months didn't used to mean sh*t in game development terms. Now, people start panicking if they don't see new content every quarter (I don't mean you personally but in general).

Here's some perspective on past releases that I'd definitely tell your friend about.

New Factions
IF 8
LT 10
AB 11
RP 12
WG 19


New Units
IF 10
LT 17
AB 17
RP 32
WG 55

New Army Lists
IF 30
LT 22
AB 29
RP 21
WG 76

Epic Battles
IF 10
LT 10
AB 6
RP 6
WG 6

Quick Battles
IF 24
LT 36
AB 37
RP 35
WG 74

Campaigns
IF 4
LT 4
AB 4
RP 4
WG 6

So, why did Wolves at the Gate take twice as long? And on top of that why are we still paying the exact same price for nearly double the content? Seems to me if you focus on what's taking place now instead of the past, you might be pleasantly surprised.


Mord.

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Re: Future DLC?

Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:20 pm

Mord wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:32 pm
Bladeheart wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:27 pm

Having invested in the two previous versions of this game only to find them dropped as detailed above and, the increasing gap in between the release of DLC I am cautious before recommending it to my friend.

So, with all due respect it was ' ... dodged with a non-answer ...', which is an answer in itself, and thus responded to in the same vain.

EDIT: Typo
Well then, point your friend in the direction of the 1.5.18 patch released in August and the 1.5.19 being beta-ed as we speak and consider them non-answers which are answers, as well. There are ways games are supported other than DLC if people pay attention. But man, 3 1/2 months didn't used to mean sh*t in game development terms. Now, people start panicking if they don't see new content every quarter (I don't mean you personally but in general).

Here's some perspective on past releases that I'd definitely tell your friend about.

New Factions
IF 8
LT 10
AB 11
RP 12
WG 19


New Units
IF 10
LT 17
AB 17
RP 32
WG 55

New Army Lists
IF 30
LT 22
AB 29
RP 21
WG 76

Epic Battles
IF 10
LT 10
AB 6
RP 6
WG 6

Quick Battles
IF 24
LT 36
AB 37
RP 35
WG 74

Campaigns
IF 4
LT 4
AB 4
RP 4
WG 6

So, why did Wolves at the Gate take twice as long? And on top of that why are we still paying the exact same price for nearly double the content? Seems to me if you focus on what's taking place now instead of the past, you might be pleasantly surprised.


Mord.
Bladehart, why are you being so difficult? You began playing FOG1 since 2011 at least, so you never got "burned twice" as the Unity version was free, and if you bothered to install it you must have liked the VB version. ( if you bought the Wolves and Oath DAGS before you tested the Unity version out, well....) Slitherine and Matrix have many ongoing games being developed at the same time, haven't you noticed? thus Fantasy General has nothing to do with FOG2 ongoing development as you believe. Tell your "friend" to stop pussyfooting around and buy the game! :)

Bladeheart
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Re: Future DLC?

Post by Bladeheart » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:29 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:20 pm

Bladehart, why are you being so difficult? You began playing FOG1 since 2011 at least, so you never got "burned twice" as the Unity version was free, and if you bothered to install it you must have liked the VB version. ( if you bought the Wolves and Oath DAGS before you tested the Unity version out, well....) Slitherine and Matrix have many ongoing games being developed at the same time, haven't you noticed? thus Fantasy General has nothing to do with FOG2 ongoing development as you believe. Tell your "friend" to stop pussyfooting around and buy the game! :)
TheGrayMooser, the subsequent version of FoG was only free if you had the original codes for the first if I recall correctly, sadly I did not as I did have to purchase it. But if daring to view an opinion other than your own is ' ... being so difficult ...' then I apologise; you may now no doubt have the last word given your post count.

Mord
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Re: Future DLC?

Post by Mord » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:50 pm

So the tally is
IF 86
LT 99
AB 104
RP 110
WG 216

Seems each successive release adds more than the last. Wolves is just shy of doubling the dlc prior to it (and doubles all others). It also came with the new Allies feature and code to tie it in with Empires (along with bugfixes, corrected Army Lists etc.).

In the 23 months since FoG II debuted it's taken an average of 4.6 months for a dlc to release. Some were faster than others but there's the math.


Mord.

majgentob
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Re: Future DLC?

Post by majgentob » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:58 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:03 pm
Mord wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:41 am
matlegob wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:32 pm

- can we hope siege battles in future DLC?
Absolutely wanna see this!

Mord.
Honestly the game is unsuited for sieges. Sieges would require an entire game designed from scratch on their own. Since so very few sieges ended by assault, it would have to take into account:

1) Cavalry skirmishes for control of the countryside
2) Both armies food supplies and attempts to cut one another off from supply
3) The building of fortifications, facing both inward and outward, by the besiegers
4) Sallies and counter attacks by the defenders
5) Disease
6) Decisions by the defenders about whether to expel civilians
7) Tunneling, counter tunneling and deadly subterranean knife fights
8 Finally, for assaults themselves to be interesting, the game would have to take into account not only breaches in the walls, but ladders vs siege towers, covering fire, and the seizure of individual towers.

The game would have to work on a timescale of months for most games, weeks if a a weak garrison falls to assault, or years in extreme cases. The scale would have to be able to range from a small castle held by dozens, to the sieges of Alesia, Syracuse, or Constantinople with tens of thousands involved. Perhaps even things like the initial Theban attempt to seize Plataea would count as a 'siege,' meaning the game would need to find a way to model surprise night time assaults, and the political/psychological contest that decided that action. The end result would usually be the besieging army giving up and withdrawing, followed by the negotiated surrender of the defenders. Less common results would be seizure by treachery from within, and least common of all would be the taking of the stronghold by assault. The game would have to take long term morale into account, along with a very strong focus on logistics.

None of this can be effectively modeled by a game designed for single day set piece battles, in which logistics and political considerations take no part, and in which the scale of 500 man units would be too large to take into account the small things that could decide assaults (the seizure of a single tower, a sally port that happened to be open, etc.)

This isn't even getting into trying to figure out things like the war for Chioggia or the Crusader assault on Constantinople, complex combined land sea operations.
This brilliant engine may not be able to carry out complete sieges from spade to sword, but it can model the latter stages of a siege in which the wall has been undermined or battered down.
For multiple battles I have done the following:
· Built a fort using medium or high walls, leaving a gap to simulate a pre-existing breech. In many cases, I’ve used the “broken wall” from the Phillipi building set.
· Placed an objective for the AI inside the walls.
In each battle, the AI did the following:
· Attacked the breech in force, invariably supported by missile units. The result was a desperate struggle to control the breech, with causalities from both sides piling “in the rubble.”
· Made less concentrated (e.g. feint) attacks in one or two other locations, often supported by archers, etc.
· Made extensive use of ranged weapons at various points along the wall, gradually wearing down the defenders in specific sectors.
The AI behaves logically, it seems to me. If the attackers gained the advantage, they pushed forward through the breech and reinforcements flowed in through the gap(s). Give it a try!

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Re: Future DLC?

Post by Mord » Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:30 am

majgentob wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:58 am

This brilliant engine may not be able to carry out complete sieges from spade to sword, but it can model the latter stages of a siege in which the wall has been undermined or battered down.
For multiple battles I have done the following:
Bunch of cool stuff


Throw the file out there, man! That all sounds killer.


Mord.

MVP7
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Re: Future DLC?

Post by MVP7 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:27 am

Sengoku Jidai has some siege scenarios. They are unique and interesting enough but not really something I can see being developed into standard aspect of FoG2.

Strictly defined units, direct player control and turn based combat are not great for depicting siege battles. FoG2 is primarily a tactical game and I don't think there's much tactics involved in any siege. The actual siege is mainly logistics and engineering, and the storming of walls and breaches is a big brawl more than anything.

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Re: Future DLC?

Post by majgentob » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:14 pm

But now FOG2, because of its versatility, is being used within a strategic context, FOG Empires. And history is full of brawls....😀

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Re: Future DLC?

Post by majgentob » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:40 pm

Forgot to mention that the engine can do AI siege defense if you set it up right.

First build your walls, and set up your defense as two concentric circles. In the outer circle that defends the walls, the AI aggression should be set to 4. NOTE: do not use light infantry, but massed archers to man these walls. They will murder your attackers with ranged missile fire and stay in place if they're attacked.

In the inner concentric circle place melee units with an aggression of 8. If a gap is created in the outer circle, these guys will rush in to fill the hole when you scale the wall and make life very hard for any human opponents assaulting the fort.

I've done this several times and it's great fun.

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Re: Future DLC?

Post by MVP7 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:10 pm

Yeah it's definitely possible to do with the engine. I just personally don't think it's that interesting as there's virtually no tactical decisions involved. When tactical decisions come into play they are generally unrealistic as the units are too clearly defined and under perfect player control most of the time. The same issues have been my greatest gripe with almost every Total War game as well.

Mord
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Re: Future DLC?

Post by Mord » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:36 pm

majgentob wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:40 pm
Forgot to mention that the engine can do AI siege defense if you set it up right.
Post one of the battles so we can try it out! It may inspire other scenario designers. Every new technique adds to the common knowledge. Even if someone doesn't necessarily use it for making another siege scenario they might find other useful ideas. The more examples the more likely design evolves. Each new idea is a stepping stone.




MVP7 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:10 pm
Yeah it's definitely possible to do with the engine. I just personally don't think it's that interesting as there's virtually no tactical decisions involved. When tactical decisions come into play they are generally unrealistic as the units are too clearly defined and under perfect player control most of the time. The same issues have been my greatest gripe with almost every Total War game as well.

It all depends on how they are designed. Think outside the Phalanx. Being negative doesn't exactly inspire innovation. The more options the better. Be positive! The dude has ideas that should be encouraged. Innovation needs positive affirmations, my man!

Mord.

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