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suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:40 am
by kokkorhekkus
First : this game is a marvelous realisation. A really great work in many aspects, i play X hours a day in my holidays, sometimes with my wife ,-)
i'm bored with chess now ,-)

I suggest just that in some cases morale checking could be ameliored on details with additionnal chances to rally :

1) when a perturbed or divided unit routs an ennemy, a moral check is performed : if succeed, then a level up is applicated (perturbed one becomes stable and so on)
it seems realistic, and sometimes dangerous : it perturbs the routine of normal order on melee combat resolution choices ! in multiple melees you may take the risk to choice a non stable unit(s) to make first attacks instead of stable ones...and a bad surprise instead of good one in result, or a less chance to rout the opponent unit if the better unit to attack is not the first choice...
2) when a "great action" arrived in the battlefield : 2 or more adjacent ennemy units in the same turn are routed, then all the adjacent friendly units take a morale check and if succeed a level up is applicated. it seems realistic too for me
3) when a general OR at least a commander in chief is routed outside the battlefield it will be fine if he could return on it. It seems not realist that a bad lucking alexander routs with a unit until the end of time , and it arrived to my opponent at granicus ,-) ! AND i think too that a routed unit with any general on unit cannot disperse...

Again, this game is a gem, but dicussions on these points could be fine

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:57 am
by rbodleyscott
Thanks.

We welcome all feedback.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:18 pm
by kokkorhekkus
thanks to you, i just think bad or tired moral in battle could be "boosted" by a success in front of ennemy and for playing experience risk a general for rallying could be a more real option for players, this game is a game of multiple choices and jump a leader to a routed unit have to be considered, i make this choice from time to time but the fire of battle make this choice a rare one. (specially in in campaign game it could be fun to have this choice with better chance of success). But it needs testing for sure

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:14 pm
by cromlechi
I've thought for a while if chances of rallying should be increased for disrupted and fragmented units that get to cover, e.g. woods and out of fire range. This makes sense as under cover and in safety they would have more chance to reorganise. If I recall in the squad battles game this was modelled and getting units to cover increased their chances of rallying.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:49 am
by 76mm
Also maybe increase odds for rallying (or maybe even instant rally) if a disrupted or fragmented unit wins a melee. Not implausible that they could "get their mojo back" if they stick it to the enemy.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:14 am
by General Shapur
I'm having a bad run with opponents getting multiple rallies at the moment. It seems to me a well thought out plan thats going well can be ruined by distant rallies that cant be reached. These things are out of player control. Id like to see units only rally if in range of an un-engaged general. Id also like to see routed units that are charged essentially destroyed. The return of routed units is too unpredictable and has too much of an influence on the score. Disclaimer: tainted by recent battles.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:43 am
by Lysimachos
General Shapur wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:14 am
I'm having a bad run with opponents getting multiple rallies at the moment. It seems to me a well thought out plan thats going well can be ruined by distant rallies that cant be reached. These things are out of player control. Id like to see units only rally if in range of an un-engaged general. Id also like to see routed units that are charged essentially destroyed. The return of routed units is too unpredictable and has too much of an influence on the score. Disclaimer: tainted by recent battles.
+1 :wink:

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:10 am
by kokkorhekkus
Cromlechi i think it's a good idea you're right : better chances of rally perhaps in woods or at least "houses" (what about "to stop" running in a villa or house ?), and Shapur's idea for rallying only if general on the unit is involved OR unengaged general in range could be the only way to rally in a middle of a melee, it could be considered too, what a good ideas...more uneasy choices for players... and like gmt board games a general could be used to rally with better chances if in range... and no dispersed units if a general is on it please ,-) ! Dispersed units on battlefield after few turns is a problem for me too : having a larger background to have time to rally could be considered ...each army must have better choices to stand up in a defensive position or advance toward the ennemy ? especially if a player wait in good position and the other do no want to attack it !

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm
by MVP7
Generally I think the rallying is working pretty good the way it is now, maybe general could slightly increase the odds of rallying but not by much. At the same time it would be nice if odds of rallying could be reduced and the chance of dispersal increased by further attacking the broken unit (by pursuing and shooting).

The problem even with the current amount of rallying is that the rallied units count towards the victory percentage but in practice they rarely have time to contribute or even return to the front. Effect on victory percentage is especially silly when an unit rallies in a faraway forest where no-one would even see it.

If rallying was to be made more common then the rules should be changed so that the broken unit counts back towards victory percentage only after it goes from fragmented to disrupted.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:38 pm
by 76mm
MVP7 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm
The problem even with the current amount of rallying is that the rallied units count towards the victory percentage but in practice they rarely have time to contribute or even return to the front. Effect on victory percentage is especially silly when an unit rallies in a faraway forest where no-one would even see it.
This is good point, those fragmented-ralliers on the back edge of the map aren't contributing in any way to the battle (other than to draw off light cav, etc. to break them again), so it doesn't seem like they should count towards the winning %.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:31 pm
by rbodleyscott
76mm wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:38 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm
The problem even with the current amount of rallying is that the rallied units count towards the victory percentage but in practice they rarely have time to contribute or even return to the front. Effect on victory percentage is especially silly when an unit rallies in a faraway forest where no-one would even see it.
This is good point, those fragmented-ralliers on the back edge of the map aren't contributing in any way to the battle (other than to draw off light cav, etc. to break them again), so it doesn't seem like they should count towards the winning %.
They aren’t counting towards the winning %, they are counting towards their army not breaking so soon.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:01 pm
by lapdog666
rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:31 pm
76mm wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:38 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm
The problem even with the current amount of rallying is that the rallied units count towards the victory percentage but in practice they rarely have time to contribute or even return to the front. Effect on victory percentage is especially silly when an unit rallies in a faraway forest where no-one would even see it.
This is good point, those fragmented-ralliers on the back edge of the map aren't contributing in any way to the battle (other than to draw off light cav, etc. to break them again), so it doesn't seem like they should count towards the winning %.
They aren’t counting towards the winning %, they are counting towards their army not breaking so soon.

but thats pure word play. mathematically they are adding "power" to the player. doesnt matter which way it goes. as long as player x gets 3% off of his shoulders, the enemy gets 3% on his shoulders, especially in multiplayer where opponents are both highly skilled

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:20 am
by 76mm
rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:31 pm
They aren’t counting towards the winning %, they are counting towards their army not breaking so soon.
Yes Richard, I know how it works, but the point is that they count when calculating the percentages for victory even though they generally contribute nothing--and cannot contribute anything--to the actual battle.

Just to brainstorm, could be tweaked so that fragmented units only count if they are x squares off the back map edge--a simplistic way of determining whether they have any chance of getting back in the fight.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:30 am
by General Shapur
Essentially rallied units on the map periphery, out of realistic range, are protected points cashes randomly awarded.

In 2 recent games I had text book flanking maneuvers that should have won me the games - but periphery rallies took those points away leaving fragmented units out of range and my worn out units having to press the attack on fresh units to get back what i already had. Very frustrating, because in those games i didnt get any rallies from broken at all. I'm sure its not isolated, and im certain ive been on the lucky side before too. But as i play more and more games this aspect is becoming a dark cloud.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:51 am
by lapdog666
perhaps units that are outside command range of their general or perhaps any general cannot be rallied at all, unless they are again perhaps superior or better

some combo from above

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:41 am
by Lysimachos
76mm wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:20 am
rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:31 pm
They aren’t counting towards the winning %, they are counting towards their army not breaking so soon.
Yes Richard, I know how it works, but the point is that they count when calculating the percentages for victory even though they generally contribute nothing--and cannot contribute anything--to the actual battle.

Just to brainstorm, could be tweaked so that fragmented units only count if they are x squares off the back map edge--a simplistic way of determining whether they have any chance of getting back in the fight.
I agree with the suggestion of 76mm.
It seems really sound and shouldn't be a problem to modify the game this way ...

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:53 am
by Cunningcairn
General Shapur wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:14 am
I'm having a bad run with opponents getting multiple rallies at the moment. It seems to me a well thought out plan thats going well can be ruined by distant rallies that cant be reached. These things are out of player control. Id like to see units only rally if in range of an un-engaged general. Id also like to see routed units that are charged essentially destroyed. The return of routed units is too unpredictable and has too much of an influence on the score. Disclaimer: tainted by recent battles.
Snap! I have never experienced opponent rallies as I have over the last few days. I have had 3 successive games against different opponents where their armies were routed and they received 4, 4, and 5 rallies in what should have been the last turn with me not having a hope in hell of chasing them down with an infantry army. These armies were beaten and had no reason to rally. The trend is happening in all games I'm playing at the moment with at least one rally per turn which is not as extreme. I certainly don't think the ability for troops to rally should be enhanced. Is there a historical precedent? My understanding is that historically when units broke this rippled through the army as is evident from the difference in casualty numbers between winners and losers. Pyrrhus being the exception I suppose.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:54 pm
by Karvon
While I have no idea of all the factors considered in FOG2 cohesion checks and rallies, given the number of variables included in combat, I would think, as the computer handles the calculations these days, morale should include a variety of variables as well. In WRG, for example, there were all sorts of modifiers to morale and a wider quality range than FOG2 seems to include.

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:34 pm
by 76mm
Cunningcairn wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:53 am
I certainly don't think the ability for troops to rally should be enhanced. Is there a historical precedent?
While I agree with you that units that have already broken should not be easier to rally, I do think that certain circumstances should allow units which are about to break to rally (actually regain cohesion) more easily. History is replete with instances of wavering troops suddenly inspired by some event to hold their ground, etc.

Hence my suggestion that if a fragmented/disrupted unit with negligible odds of success (1-5%) somehow wins anyway, they should instantly regain cohesion or at least receive a large cohesion bonus in the next rally phase. There has been a lot of talk on this forum about how often units break because of various random circumstances, but I think the argument also applies to units regaining cohesion...

Re: suggestion : more RALLIED UNITS with events on the battlefield ?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:37 pm
by 76mm
General Shapur wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:30 am
Very frustrating, because in those games i didnt get any rallies from broken at all.
This is not actually completely random, because certain armies (ie, Roman) tend not to break until they auto-break (after which there is no chance to rally) while other armies tend to break more easily and thus have hordes of fleeing units subject to rally at the most inopportune time (for the opponent).