Moving through a ZOC

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
MVP7
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by MVP7 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:05 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:47 am
Image
At least to me the blue unit being prevented from charging the enemy hoplites in this situation just because the hoplites are at slight angle is more gamey than if they were able to charge. The distance and the threat of the red Hoplite unit is the same in both situations, the angle has no practical effect other than the zoc rules.

If the charge by blue was prevented in this kind of situation, I'd like to have an option to fall back to south-east direction (out of flanked position) with a penalized cohesion test. In real situation I think that would be the most likely course of action for the blue.

SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:04 pm

The potential problem is that if the diagonal unit of hoplites was front facing another non light enemy to its front, the blue hoplites could suicide charge them to free the other unit to move, despite the exertion of a primary zoc from their rear. I personally don't really see a problem with the blue unit in this situation being doomed, with the options to either turn around or stand. After all, IRL, such a unit would just immediately break and flee or, more likely, surrender.

Personally, although the diagonals thing is annoying, I never thought it as in need of fixing as the randomly chosen zoc problem, which will be taken care of it seems.

The only remaining concern I have is the lights-blocking maneuver, but I can live with that in a way that I have had trouble doing with the main topic of this thread.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by MVP7 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:29 am

If the red hoplite was facing a blue non-light then the blue hoplite could just turn to face the cavalry with no risk of rear charge by the red hoplite with or without Cunningcairn's suggested change.

I think the ideal and most realistic solution would be that if a unit is sandwiched like this (aka at risk of getting rear charged rather than just flank charged) it shouldn't be able to attack anyone, even if it were in red hoplites' primary ZOC. Instead the only options should be standing there and breaking after the enemy attacks (even rotating a unit in a situation like this would actually require incredible drill and discipline) or attempt to desperately fall back away from both enemies' ZOCs with a very high chance of panic and cohesion loss in the process.

If a sandwiched unit can still attack at all, then it might as well be allowed to attack the hoplites in this situation since it could do so if the hoplites were "facing" it in mechanical sense (in practice they already are). The red hoplites being able to avoid the charge by being slightly angled is very gamey: If the red unit was a low quality unit instead, like poorly armed rabble for example, it would be safe from blue hoplites' possibly devastating charge just by being at angle.

This certainly isn't a high priority change for me either but there's no reason not to discuss all the possibilities :). I realize coding the falling back rules with all the ZOCs applying would not be a simple task as there's a large number of different situations to consider, not to mention the AI changes and possible new exploits.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:04 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:40 pm
TheGrayMouser wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:19 pm
Would a lot of these counter intuitive situations be avoided( especially the angled line) if along with RBS proposal, to have a rule that no active unit can enter an enemy primary zoc unless it is charging the unit exerting said pzoc?
I don't think that would alter the case in question.

However, perhaps Cunningcairn could set up an example of the thing he is trying to prevent and take a screenshot, in case we are talking at cross-purposes.
There are just too many variations of angled line defenses. They all involve a 45 degree angle between two lines of troops. One is parallel to a table edge and the other is at 45 degrees to the edge. for example if an enemy line marches to with in charge range of your line and overlaps your line at one end you turn your line 45 degrees in the direction to which you are overlapped. No more overlap. If you have a lesser troop in your line or one that is disrupted or fragmented by angling units either side of said unit by 45 degrees you can create scenarios where the unit directly in front of the unit you don't want charged is in primary ZOC's of units next to your vulnerable unit but the vulnerable unit itself is only offering a secondary ZOC due to itself turning 45 degrees to any unit that is in charge range. Basically you can get yourself out of disaster despite having an enemy unit in front of you in spitting range by turning 45 degrees. It is very common.

rbodleyscott
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:24 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:04 am
However, perhaps Cunningcairn could set up an example of the thing he is trying to prevent and take a screenshot, in case we are talking at cross-purposes.
There are just too many variations of angled line defenses. They all involve a 45 degree angle between two lines of troops. One is parallel to a table edge and the other is at 45 degrees to the edge. for example if an enemy line marches to with in charge range of your line and overlaps your line at one end you turn your line 45 degrees in the direction to which you are overlapped. No more overlap.
I am struggling to see what is so wrong with this - any more than turning to face a flank threat. The opposing lines are clearly not in adjacent square lines at this point, otherwise the unit on the end could not turn, because it would be pinned by the ZOC1 of the unit in front of it. So the units (in real life) would have some time to react.

Maybe a single unit overlap isn't that big of a deal in the historical scheme of things? Should a single unit overlap always decide the fate of the whole line?

Maybe I am wrong, but without a screenshot to enlighten me I fail to perceive the enormity of the supposed exploit.
If you have a lesser troop in your line or one that is disrupted or fragmented by angling units either side of said unit by 45 degrees you can create scenarios where the unit directly in front of the unit you don't want charged is in primary ZOC's of units next to your vulnerable unit but the vulnerable unit itself is only offering a secondary ZOC due to itself turning 45 degrees to any unit that is in charge range. Basically you can get yourself out of disaster despite having an enemy unit in front of you in spitting range by turning 45 degrees. It is very common.
I don't disagree. But we need some concrete examples to work with. You are the one that wants the change, so I don't think it is unreasonable to ask you to provide some actual visual examples to assist with analysis. So set up some examples of situations you don't like and make screenshots. You don't have to wait for the situations to occur in actual games. You can set up the situation using the Editor and then start up the "scenario" in Epic Battles.

"A picture is worth a thousand words".
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

Cunningcairn
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:55 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:24 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:04 am
However, perhaps Cunningcairn could set up an example of the thing he is trying to prevent and take a screenshot, in case we are talking at cross-purposes.
There are just too many variations of angled line defenses. They all involve a 45 degree angle between two lines of troops. One is parallel to a table edge and the other is at 45 degrees to the edge. for example if an enemy line marches to with in charge range of your line and overlaps your line at one end you turn your line 45 degrees in the direction to which you are overlapped. No more overlap.
I am struggling to see what is so wrong with this - any more than turning to face a flank threat. The opposing lines are clearly not in adjacent square lines at this point, otherwise the unit on the end could not turn, because it would be pinned by the ZOC1 of the unit in front of it. So the units (in real life) would have some time to react.

Maybe a single unit overlap isn't that big of a deal in the historical scheme of things? Should a single unit overlap always decide the fate of the whole line?

Maybe I am wrong, but without a screenshot to enlighten me I fail to perceive the enormity of the supposed exploit.

It is not about enormity but rather about consistency. You are against "geometry" I think you called it in the game. Well that is exactly what it is and if you are concerned about "geometry" then allow a unit to charge an enemy unit directly to it's front if the enemy unit it is generating a primary or secondary ZOC. I made my point to improve the game and I think the proposed change will do just that. I have made a proposal and it is your decision to implement it or not.
If you have a lesser troop in your line or one that is disrupted or fragmented by angling units either side of said unit by 45 degrees you can create scenarios where the unit directly in front of the unit you don't want charged is in primary ZOC's of units next to your vulnerable unit but the vulnerable unit itself is only offering a secondary ZOC due to itself turning 45 degrees to any unit that is in charge range. Basically you can get yourself out of disaster despite having an enemy unit in front of you in spitting range by turning 45 degrees. It is very common.
I don't disagree. But we need some concrete examples to work with. You are the one that wants the change, so I don't think it is unreasonable to ask you to provide some actual visual examples to assist with analysis. So set up some examples of situations you don't like and make screenshots. You don't have to wait for the situations to occur in actual games. You can set up the situation using the Editor and then start up the "scenario" in Epic Battles.

At risk of going off thread I have not used the editor since trying it once or twice because I find it extremely difficult and time consuming to use. I do not have the will or time to do as you request. I have provided you with an algorithm that probably corrects problems, perceived by not only me but other players as well. This subject has had enough discussion and if changes are made or not is entirely your decision.

"A picture is worth a thousand words".
and a model is worth a thousand pictures.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:05 pm

At risk of going off thread I have not used the editor since trying it once or twice because I find it extremely difficult and time consuming to use. I do not have the will or time to do as you request. I have provided you with an algorithm that probably corrects problems, perceived by not only me but other players as well. This subject has had enough discussion and if changes are made or not is entirely your decision.
You have the developers attention in this matter and now you don’t have the time for a screenshot?? If you can’t figure out the editor, just launch a hot seat battle and you can easily get units in any situation you please within 10 minutes.

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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:38 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:05 pm
At risk of going off thread I have not used the editor since trying it once or twice because I find it extremely difficult and time consuming to use. I do not have the will or time to do as you request. I have provided you with an algorithm that probably corrects problems, perceived by not only me but other players as well. This subject has had enough discussion and if changes are made or not is entirely your decision.
You have the developers attention in this matter and now you don’t have the time for a screenshot?? If you can’t figure out the editor, just launch a hot seat battle and you can easily get units in any situation you please within 10 minutes.
Correct I don't have the will or the time. To provide screenshots that present the problem adequately requires the analysis to be done before producing the screenshots. That takes a lot of time to do.

Cunningcairn
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Re: Moving through a ZOC

Post by Cunningcairn » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:51 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:29 am
If the red hoplite was facing a blue non-light then the blue hoplite could just turn to face the cavalry with no risk of rear charge by the red hoplite with or without Cunningcairn's suggested change.

I think the ideal and most realistic solution would be that if a unit is sandwiched like this (aka at risk of getting rear charged rather than just flank charged) it shouldn't be able to attack anyone, even if it were in red hoplites' primary ZOC. Instead the only options should be standing there and breaking after the enemy attacks (even rotating a unit in a situation like this would actually require incredible drill and discipline) or attempt to desperately fall back away from both enemies' ZOCs with a very high chance of panic and cohesion loss in the process.

If a sandwiched unit can still attack at all, then it might as well be allowed to attack the hoplites in this situation since it could do so if the hoplites were "facing" it in mechanical sense (in practice they already are). The red hoplites being able to avoid the charge by being slightly angled is very gamey: If the red unit was a low quality unit instead, like poorly armed rabble for example, it would be safe from blue hoplites' possibly devastating charge just by being at angle.

This certainly isn't a high priority change for me either but there's no reason not to discuss all the possibilities :). I realize coding the falling back rules with all the ZOCs applying would not be a simple task as there's a large number of different situations to consider, not to mention the AI changes and possible new exploits.
This is not an issue of the angled line defense. The angled line defense never has a unit in a double primary ZOC nor does it have it's flank or rear zoc'd therefore the picture posted is just a distraction. If there was a desire to stop the angled line defense it would be a simple matter of changing the proposed solution to ensure that a unit can only charge a unit directly to its front when in a primary ZOC of another unit that is not ZOCing its flank or rear and the unit directly to the front was presenting a primary or secondary ZOC to the charging unit. I do not have an issue with the unit in the picture not being able to move and standing there awaiting its fate. My only question would be why should it be allowed to charge if the unit to its front was generating a primary ZOC? Why would the argument change as the threat to the surrounded unit is still the same?

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