ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:22 am

Latro wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:35 am
melm wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:35 am
TheGrayMouser wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:16 pm

No version of fog ( computer or tabletop) allowed voluntary break offs ( maybe p&s tabletop did?). I agree that Cavalry is too easily pinned by mere infantry and would love to see it addressed somehow...
I feel the upcoming version 1.5.19 addressed it well.
Not the pinning issue. They can now (auto) disengaged when odds are unfavorable but are still easily pinned by another diagonally facing infantry unit.
That hasn't changed.
This is certainly something we could look into.

The question is whether allowing break-offs in general to ignore ZOCs would be a good change or not?

Or whether maybe cavalry break-offs can ignore infantry ZOCs but not cavalry ZOCs?

I would like to see some discussion of the pros and cons, so I have started this new thread on the subject.
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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by Cunningcairn » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:07 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:22 am
Latro wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:35 am
melm wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:35 am


I feel the upcoming version 1.5.19 addressed it well.
Not the pinning issue. They can now (auto) disengaged when odds are unfavorable but are still easily pinned by another diagonally facing infantry unit.
That hasn't changed.
This is certainly something we could look into.

The question is whether allowing break-offs in general to ignore ZOCs would be a good change or not?

Or whether maybe cavalry break-offs can ignore infantry ZOCs but not cavalry ZOCs?

I would like to see some discussion of the pros and cons, so I have started this new thread on the subject.
Is there a parallel universe for some FOG2 players? ZOC doesn't work properly anymore and you are discussing ignoring ZOC's when cavalry break off. Where are you getting this info?

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:12 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:07 am
Is there a parallel universe for some FOG2 players? ZOC doesn't work properly anymore and you are discussing ignoring ZOC's when cavalry break off. Where are you getting this info?
ZOC (when a unit is in multiple enemy ZOCs) is working as intended, as was explained last time you brought up the issue. It is also working exactly the same as it has been since the game was first published, so it is not "not working properly any more". We know you disagree with the way it works, but that particular issue is off topic for this thread - please keep it in its proper thread(s). It would also be helpful if you did not create multiple threads on the same subject.

This is an entirely different issue about ZOCs preventing break-offs and thus making it easier (than is probably realistic) for infantry to dog-pile cavalry.
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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by Karvon » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 am

I'm certainly in favor of horse being able to break off from foot regardless of the ZOC. I think that would be more in the flavor of how mounted functioned vs foot, even into periods beyond. I'd be in favor of mounted being able to break off vs slower horse as well, so lights could break off from non lights, cavalry from cataphracts, heavy chariots and elephants.

I'd like to see light foot have the same treatment vs slower foot.

Obviously, this would make mounted and lights more slippery and more difficult to destroy, but break offs could still be blocked by occupying the space behind such units, so not a complete save.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by Morbio » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:41 am

Karvon wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 am
I'm certainly in favor of horse being able to break off from foot regardless of the ZOC. I think that would be more in the flavor of how mounted functioned vs foot, even into periods beyond. I'd be in favor of mounted being able to break off vs slower horse as well, so lights could break off from non lights, cavalry from cataphracts, heavy chariots and elephants.

I'd like to see light foot have the same treatment vs slower foot.

Obviously, this would make mounted and lights more slippery and more difficult to destroy, but break offs could still be blocked by occupying the space behind such units, so not a complete save.
This seems reasonable to me, but perhaps there should be some cost, whether it is a few casualties (a bit like skirmisher evade) or a cohesion check.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by melm » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:12 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:22 am

This is certainly something we could look into.

The question is whether allowing break-offs in general to ignore ZOCs would be a good change or not?

Or whether maybe cavalry break-offs can ignore infantry ZOCs but not cavalry ZOCs?

I would like to see some discussion of the pros and cons, so I have started this new thread on the subject.
Could some examples be provided for the cases like cavalry can't break-off because of ZOC or cavalry can break-off ignoring ZOC? I think that may help the discussion.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by Latro » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:58 pm

Karvon wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 am
I'm certainly in favor of horse being able to break off from foot regardless of the ZOC. I think that would be more in the flavor of how mounted functioned vs foot, even into periods beyond. I'd be in favor of mounted being able to break off vs slower horse as well, so lights could break off from non lights, cavalry from cataphracts, heavy chariots and elephants.

I'd like to see light foot have the same treatment vs slower foot.

Obviously, this would make mounted and lights more slippery and more difficult to destroy, but break offs could still be blocked by occupying the space behind such units, so not a complete save.
I agree completely.
Horses are so much faster than someone on foot, just one or two trots and they are out of reach from any infantry. Some very heavy cavalry, riding knee to knee, could maybe have some difficulty disengaging, through pressure from behind and/or their vision and hearing being impaired by a closed helmet. So cataphracts and late knights could be exeptions.

Cavalry should also have no trouble catching up to light infantry. Now they have to pursue them completely off the board. maybe increase range of medium cavalry with 1?
That would also improve their mobility in taking up position, which is also a tad too slow in the game, imho.

As a penalty they could maybe be disorganised for a while after a break off. If that is possible.
After formation is lost it does take some time for cavalry to reorganise.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by MVP7 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:05 pm

The easier it is for cavalry to break off and leave combat the more frustrating it is for infantry based armies. Infantry can't force a fight against unwilling cavalry, in most game modes cavalry has no real reason to offer battle for infantry, and it's already tricky to keep cavalry in a melee without gamey tactics. In FoG2 you can't defeat a cavalry army strategically just by holding firm or pushing them off the field, you actually need to fight and rout them to achieve victory. In my opinion making the cavalry any more elusive than it currently is (in 1.5.19) would not make the game better.

There's only so much mobility that can be reasonably modeled in a turn based system. Cavalry getting surrounded by infantry is a historical weakness. My suggestion is the same as before: If cavalry needs further buffs then the best way is to improve their impact/melee performance. Small scale movement like falling back and regrouping before next charge could be considered micro movement that falls under melee rather than trying to replicate it with the turn based system.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by Latro » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:13 pm

melm wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:12 pm
Could some examples be provided for the cases like cavalry can't break-off because of ZOC or cavalry can break-off ignoring ZOC? I think that may help the discussion.
example.png
example.png (548.91 KiB) Viewed 652 times
These horse archers are secondarily pinned by the diagonally facing lancers. In the current game they are doomed, unless their other unit engages the diagonal lancers ( and stays engaged!).
In real life they would just about face and outpace the heavier cavalry ( certainly any infantry).

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by Latro » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:28 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:05 pm
The easier it is for cavalry to break off and leave combat the more frustrating it is for infantry based armies.
Which would be historically correct!
Infantry can't force a fight against unwilling cavalry, in most game modes cavalry has no real reason to offer battle for infantry, and it's already tricky to keep cavalry in a melee without gamey tactics. In FoG2 you can't defeat a cavalry army strategically just by holding firm or pushing them off the field, you actually need to fight and rout them to achieve victory.
Indeed. Holding them off untill nightfall was the historical answer. Apart from raising more cavalry yourself.
Cavalry getting surrounded by infantry is a historical weakness.
Yes, if they pushed their charge too far or engaged too long and got outflanked. Which is possible in the game as it is.
My suggestion is the same as before: If cavalry needs further buffs then the best way is to improve their impact/melee performance. Small scale movement like falling back and regrouping before next charge could be considered micro movement that falls under melee rather than trying to replicate it with the turn based system.
Which would be a-historical. Cavalry has a hard time against determined infantry.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by Cunningcairn » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:12 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:07 am
Is there a parallel universe for some FOG2 players? ZOC doesn't work properly anymore and you are discussing ignoring ZOC's when cavalry break off. Where are you getting this info?
ZOC (when a unit is in multiple enemy ZOCs) is working as intended, as was explained last time you brought up the issue. It is also working exactly the same as it has been since the game was first published, so it is not "not working properly any more". We know you disagree with the way it works, but that particular issue is off topic for this thread - please keep it in its proper thread(s). It would also be helpful if you did not create multiple threads on the same subject.

This is an entirely different issue about ZOCs preventing break-offs and thus making it easier (than is probably realistic) for infantry to dog-pile cavalry.
OK I understand the confusion of multiple threads, Please tell me where I should post my screenshot of my bow walking straight passed a legionary if it is off topic in this thread? If you could please look at my example in my thread and state that it is what you intend to happen.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by MVP7 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:42 pm

Latro wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:28 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:05 pm
The easier it is for cavalry to break off and leave combat the more frustrating it is for infantry based armies.
Which would be historically correct!
Infantry can't force a fight against unwilling cavalry, in most game modes cavalry has no real reason to offer battle for infantry, and it's already tricky to keep cavalry in a melee without gamey tactics. In FoG2 you can't defeat a cavalry army strategically just by holding firm or pushing them off the field, you actually need to fight and rout them to achieve victory.
Indeed. Holding them off untill nightfall was the historical answer. Apart from raising more cavalry yourself.
Cavalry getting surrounded by infantry is a historical weakness.
Yes, if they pushed their charge too far or engaged too long and got outflanked. Which is possible in the game as it is.
My suggestion is the same as before: If cavalry needs further buffs then the best way is to improve their impact/melee performance. Small scale movement like falling back and regrouping before next charge could be considered micro movement that falls under melee rather than trying to replicate it with the turn based system.
Which would be a-historical. Cavalry has a hard time against determined infantry.
FoG2 is a game. There are already many occasions where gameplay is picked over "realism" by necessity: Massed archers don't evade, "massed horse" archers handle differently from "light" horse archers, horse archers don't deal damage while evading, full size infantry units can't use javelins/darts for ranged attacks etc...

Cavalry stickiness is another area where correct balancing is imperative. The grid, scale and turn based nature of the game won't work well with too loosely moving cavalry and the end result wouldn't be authentic either. Pinning down cavalry with infantry already requires some of the most blatantly unauthentic gamey tactics in the entire game.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by Nosy_Rat » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 pm

Latro wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:13 pm
melm wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:12 pm
Could some examples be provided for the cases like cavalry can't break-off because of ZOC or cavalry can break-off ignoring ZOC? I think that may help the discussion.
example.png

These horse archers are secondarily pinned by the diagonally facing lancers. In the current game they are doomed, unless their other unit engages the diagonal lancers ( and stays engaged!).
In real life they would just about face and outpace the heavier cavalry ( certainly any infantry).
I think you are mixing up evasion and fall backs there.
Cavalry just can't fall back from lancers that initiated the fight, so that has nothing to do with the ZoC issue.

Those horse archers would have evaded, if charged not from an adjacent square, no matter pinned diagonally or not.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:20 am

While this is a subject worth exploring, might it not be best to see how the new increased bounciness of cavalry changes the meta first? But if we were to test one, I would say cavalry ignoring infantry but not cavalry ZoCs for breakoff purposes.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by melm » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:43 am

One idea crossed my mind, perhaps it is a little digression, that currently the cavalry falls back for two tiles after charging the foot formation, which is the same amount that foot can march. How about making it fall back for three tiles, that this one more tile make foot not chasing up the cavalry and ZOC it again. This can provide cavalry with more mobility while three tiles still make the foot within the range of cavalry charging.

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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:14 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm
rbodleyscott wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:12 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:07 am
Is there a parallel universe for some FOG2 players? ZOC doesn't work properly anymore and you are discussing ignoring ZOC's when cavalry break off. Where are you getting this info?
ZOC (when a unit is in multiple enemy ZOCs) is working as intended, as was explained last time you brought up the issue. It is also working exactly the same as it has been since the game was first published, so it is not "not working properly any more". We know you disagree with the way it works, but that particular issue is off topic for this thread - please keep it in its proper thread(s). It would also be helpful if you did not create multiple threads on the same subject.

This is an entirely different issue about ZOCs preventing break-offs and thus making it easier (than is probably realistic) for infantry to dog-pile cavalry.
OK I understand the confusion of multiple threads, Please tell me where I should post my screenshot of my bow walking straight passed a legionary if it is off topic in this thread? If you could please look at my example in my thread and state that it is what you intend to happen.
I already have in the other thread you posted on the same topic. I have combined the two threads to make it easier to find my previous answer.
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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by MikeC_81 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:03 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:22 am
Latro wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:35 am
melm wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:35 am


I feel the upcoming version 1.5.19 addressed it well.
Not the pinning issue. They can now (auto) disengaged when odds are unfavorable but are still easily pinned by another diagonally facing infantry unit.
That hasn't changed.
This is certainly something we could look into.

The question is whether allowing break-offs in general to ignore ZOCs would be a good change or not?

Or whether maybe cavalry break-offs can ignore infantry ZOCs but not cavalry ZOCs?

I would like to see some discussion of the pros and cons, so I have started this new thread on the subject.
I would like to see no further eroding of the rules.
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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:40 pm

MikeC_81 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:03 pm
rbodleyscott wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:22 am
Latro wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:35 am


Not the pinning issue. They can now (auto) disengaged when odds are unfavorable but are still easily pinned by another diagonally facing infantry unit.
That hasn't changed.
This is certainly something we could look into.

The question is whether allowing break-offs in general to ignore ZOCs would be a good change or not?

Or whether maybe cavalry break-offs can ignore infantry ZOCs but not cavalry ZOCs?

I would like to see some discussion of the pros and cons, so I have started this new thread on the subject.
I would like to see no further eroding of the rules.
A bit more detail, perhaps, on how you see this as eroding the rules?
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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by MikeC_81 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:08 pm

ZoC rules in turn-based games as I have stated before exist typically to increase friction between units and to prevent units, especially faster ones, from making "zoom zoom" moves that look and feel gamey. ZoC management is a big part of this game and not respecting them puts you in peril and reinforces longterm planning. We already have one case where due to programming limitations units are allowed to do absurd things. I would like this to stay the same.

Pinning an enemy in combat to allow flanking maneuvers knowing that they can't retreat due to ZoC rules should be a reward for being able to get units in place to do that. I hate 'get out of jail' free cards. If you do allow them to do something like this, there should be a severe penalty involved.
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Re: ZOCs blocking break-offs.

Post by TheGrayMouser » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:40 am

The entire zoc conundrum could mitigated if we could introduce, on top of the existing rules interceptions of units leaving a zoc and or a cohesion test on a unit who had the gall to try to maneuver with an enemy right on top of them. Perhaps additional move costs for same speed units trying to leave a zoc( to prevent the classic Benny hill romp when unit a moves behind b but doesn’t have enough ap’ to charge , b moves and now there’s a 2 grid gap ad Infinitum) With an ap penalty to “escape” the unit could move but face a rear charge next turn , or change facing. Mounted would be exempt from infantry etc of course.

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