18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Athos1660
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Athos1660 »

Cronos09 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:42 pm I hope that something will work out. But it is unlikely to be greater than James Manhattan did. Maybe, just a little :)
imho if P&S capabilities can be correctly implemented, it can be much better.

Great mod so far. Great animations !
Some thoughts. I know we will not agree :-)

1) Medium infantry
I for one find it too powerful.
I’ve just looked at Kolin 1757 in P&S. About 1200 men cause 14-44 casualties at 4 square range and 30-90 casualties at 2-square range. In this FoG2 mod, 720 men cause 16-50 casualties at 4 square range. Maybe as you mentioned it, it is because :
Cronos09 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:42 pm Bayonets, Impact Pistols, Melee Pistols and Impact Mounted are already added. But I am not sure that they work like in P&S - it should be tested.
I for one would first try to follow Richard’s advice about modding the early 18th century (if I understood it correctly) : making the most powerful infantry of the 18th century as powerful (but not more powerful) as plain Vanilla MF Musketeers in P&S. So I would give MF no more than 500 men. I would also (try to) remove the 5-turn only constraint for ammunition. I would also reduce APs to 10 (instead of 12). And I would make sure musket works like in P&S.

Then, as a second step, if not satisfied, I would increase the effect of the muskets.

2) Cuirassiers
Cronos09 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:42 pm In my version Cuirassiers only have steel armes - Prussian cuirassier charge
https://disk.yandex.by/i/1ttrhBjvgNJyJg
Did Cuirassiers (sometimes ? often ?) shoot without charging during the 18th century ? This is a innocent question : I don't know anything about the period.

Likewise, I would reduce the number of cavalrymen to 250 per unit as a first step.

Keep up the good work.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Cronos09 »

Thanks, Athos.
Athos1660 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:08 am I’ve just looked at Kolin 1757 in P&S. About 1200 men cause 14-44 casualties at 4 square range and 30-90 casualties at 2-square range. In this FoG2 mod, 720 men cause 16-50 casualties at 4 square range.

The Muskets (Shooting attack, Shooting damage) should work like in P&S. I think the unit Experience-Elan gives this difference. I will test it later.
The rest is technical questions. You can change these parameters in Squads.csv
At the moment I am working on dragoons, which I would like to make closer to P&S ones.
Athos1660 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:08 am Did Cuirassiers (sometimes ? often ?) shoot without charging during the 18th century ? This is a innocent question : I don't know anything about the period.
I will quote from a book about Frederick the Great:
"During the year following the Battle of Molwitz, Frederick set about decisively reforming his cavalry. First, based on the experience of battles with the Austrians, he fully realized the need to increase light cavalry, previously almost not represented in the Prussian army. Thus, the number of hussar regiments was increased from one to eight. The second step was a decisive revision of cavalry tactics.
The main slogan of the Prussian cavalry was the king's dictum: "Saber and attack!" Frederick's basic instructions read: “All tactical maneuvers should be performed with the greatest possible speed, all movements at a short canter are absolutely prohibited. Cavalry officers must demand from their people virtuoso skill in riding ... Every squadron that has received an order to attack is obliged to immediately and most decisively attack the enemy with melee weapons, and not a single commander, under the threat of immediate disbandment of his unit, has not the right to conduct firefights ... "
The Prussian cavalry trained in this way, under the command of their excellent commanders, contributed to the achievement of a number of major victories throughout the Second Silesian and Seven Years Wars (Hohenfriedberg, Zorndorf, Rossbach), or (as under Leuthen) "became the only guarantee of success."

In addition, we do not have a saddle shooting animation :( (Only James M option)
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Athos1660 »

Cronos09 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:27 am At the moment I am working on dragoons, which I would like to make closer to P&S ones.
Won't they be able to charge like the P&S hussars ('when'/'as if' on horseback) ?

What is the difference between hussars and dragons in the 18th century/in your mod ?
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Cronos09 »

Athos1660 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:34 am Won't they be able to charge like the P&S hussars ('when'/'as if' on horseback) ?
I will try to make dragoons like in P&S. If I fail I will make convertion of Dragoons/Dismounted Dragoons (as I suggested in P&S).
When I decide on the dragoons I will deal with the hussars.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Paul59 »

Cronos09 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:07 pm
Athos1660 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:34 am Won't they be able to charge like the P&S hussars ('when'/'as if' on horseback) ?
I will try to make dragoons like in P&S. If I fail I will make convertion of Dragoons/Dismounted Dragoons (as I suggested in P&S).
When I decide on the dragoons I will deal with the hussars.
Most 18th century dragoons fought like normal cavalry, especially by the time of the Seven Years War, and especially the Prussian dragoons. Some of the most renowned cavalry regiments in the entire Prussian army were dragoon regiments, the Bayreuth Dragoons for instance. There was one battle in the War of the Austrian Succession (Hohenfriedberg) where the charge of the Bayreuth Dragoons decided the battle. So I don't think that making them like P&S dragoons is the right way to go.

Possibly the French dragoons still fought in the old way, so maybe use the P&S style for them (and a few others?), but leave the rest as cavalry?
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Cronos09 »

Paul59 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:19 pm Most 18th century dragoons fought like normal cavalry, especially by the time of the Seven Years War, and especially the Prussian dragoons. Some of the most renowned cavalry regiments in the entire Prussian army were dragoon regiments, the Bayreuth Dragoons for instance. There was one battle in the War of the Austrian Succession (Hohenfriedberg) where the charge of the Bayreuth Dragoons decided the battle. So I don't think that making them like P&S dragoons is the right way to go.
You are right about the dragoons of the Seven Years War. They mainly fought in horse formation, attacking, as a rule, in the second line behind the cuirassiers. Although they were still trained to fight on foot too.
If we make dragoons a cavalry unit, then we just get an ordinary unit that repeats the cuirassier one but with lower parameters. P&S dragoon unit is a very interesting and unique unit. Though it is weak in the original game, it is strong enough and very useful in user's scenarios like Kesselsdorf and Kolin. For such purposes, I would like to have something like the P&S dragoons.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Athos1660 »

Indeed dragoons 'of the Renaissance' are very fun in P&S, one of my favorite units. And it is certainly mainly because Richard made them an 'average unit’, an average between LF and LH :
- Detached musketeers get 12 APs, Hussars get 20 APs, Dragoons get 16 APS
- In woods, detached musketeers are steady, Hussars are severely disordered, Dragoons are moderately disordered
- Etc.

On the other hand, seeing them not steady in woods or rough terrain and thus at disadvantage when facing detached musketeers, bothers me. Taking ‘uncomfortable’ terrains such as a wood was part of their job.

I know, you’ll answer me : 'If so, take the detached musketeers instead, and consider them as purely dismounted dragoons’. Ok, then, I want 4 unit of detached musketeers in my French 1670 list and at least one in each previous one 🙂
Paul59 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:19 pm Possibly the French dragoons still fought in the old way
Quite a few sources mention that, during the Nine Year War and the Spanish Succession War (when there were too many French Dragoon units for their traditional use), several French dragoon units (*) charged on horseback with the sword drawn, such as the Tessé-Dragons Regiment against the Imperial cavalry (successfully) during the battle of Carpi in 1701. (Here is their sword btw.)

Did they stop doing it altogether for the rest of the 18th century ? I don't know.

___________

(*) edit : '...fought in line or reserve and...'

____________
Cronos09 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:52 am If we make dragoons a cavalry unit, then we just get an ordinary unit that repeats the cuirassier one but with lower parameters. P&S dragoon unit is a very interesting and unique unit. Though it is weak in the original game, it is strong enough and very useful in user's scenarios like Kesselsdorf and Kolin. For such purposes, I would like to have something like the P&S dragoons.
Units of 18th century seems indeed less diversified than during the previous centuries.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Cronos09 »

For a long time there was no news about my version of the mod. But the work continues (and my fight with 3ds max and Archon tool :)) Thanks to Richard for the latest version of the tool.
At the moment we have the next:
1. I cannot add nice animations with changing weapons. I can do it in 3ds max with animation visibility keys, but these keys are not saved when exporting to Archon tool. For this reason I cannot make Dragoons like in P&S.
2. I cannot export Austrian grenzer and pandur models to Archon tool with an animation set. Probably, there is a problem with their body (more precisely, with its Skin modifier), but i cannot solve this issue.
3. I can do Dragoons with Mount/Dismount option (and even automatic mounting when evading). But in my opinion this introduces additional lags in the game. Therefore, the Dragoons remain for the time being only mounted.
4. I made Carbines from the Muskets and added them to Hussars. I made horseback shooting animation for them.
5. I added Pistols to Cuirassiers and Dragoons and made primitive left-handed (saber in the right hand) shooting animation for them. The Prussian Cuirassiers shoot automatically before charging and they do not have shooting option according to Frederick's instructions.
There are still some minor problems - they are being solved.
Last edited by Cronos09 on Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Athos1660 »

Bravo !
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by rcanavan »

Thank you for all you're doing!

-Richard
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Cronos09 »

Thanks for the support.
Let's solve a couple of main questions - for those who are interested in my version of the mod.
1. At firts I thought to remove the secondary ZoC completely and to make the flank charge like in P&S. Now I suggest not to change the flank charge and to remove the secondary ZoC only for cavalry. Cavalry is more maneuverable than infantry and it can penetrate/break into gaps between unengaged enemy units. It is much more difficult for the infantry to do this, especially in the era of linear tactics I think.
2. Infantry charge vs cavalry. I suggest to forbid the infantry charge vs unengaged cavalry and to leave its ability to charge cavalry which is already in close combat.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Lysimachos »

I tried to play to mod but when I launch the module in the Epic Battles screen or in the Custom Battle screen it appears this alarm:
Clipboard01.gif
Clipboard01.gif (19.46 KiB) Viewed 2149 times


Am I doing something wrong or anyone has any idea to solve the problem?
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Athos1660 »

Lysimachos wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:24 pm Am I doing something wrong or anyone has any idea to solve the problem?
Your version of the mod is an old one that can't work. You'll have to wait for a future release of an updated and reworked version of it by Cronos to have the opportunity to play with it. See the posts above.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Cronos09 »

Thanks, Athos, for your waiting. I do not know when my version is ready. I haven't complete the lines of troops of Austria and Prussia yet. I want to work out all the nuances on them, and then move on. At the moment I want to animate artillery a little.
First try https://disk.yandex.by/i/gmKn_Snc8_B19Q

Lysimachos, try to delete or rename Tools.BSF from C:\Users\(Your user's name)\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\CAMPAIGNS\18thCentury\DATA\SCRIPTS\
To remove the issue with some 3D models see this post https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 20#p910108
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Athos1660 »

Not a fan of seeing the firing before the loading. I for one like the preparation time between the order of firing and the actual shooting. I guess most players might prefer quick firing and I know it is just a matter of when the loop loading/firing begins, anyway each turn, we have :
1) I choose the target and give the order to fire
2) the gun shoots
3) the gunners load
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Cronos09 »

Athos1660 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:04 pm Not a fan of seeing the firing before the loading. I for one like the preparation time between the order of firing and the actual shooting...
Why? As far as I know in 18th century soldiers went on the attack with loaded pistols and muskets and reloaded them after firing. Another thing is that my animation of the artillerist behind the gun does not correspond to the era (it is rather the end of the 19th - 20th century). I will try to improve it but I am not sure of the success. I will also have to make a delay between the order and firing display.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Paul59 »

I think it is much better to click to fire and have the gun shoot immediately, and then reload ready for next turn. The alternative would be to click to fire, and then wait several seconds for the team to load the gun before firing, which in my view would be much less satisfying.
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Lysimachos »

Lysimachos, try to delete or rename Tools.BSF from C:\Users\(Your user's name)\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\CAMPAIGNS\18thCentury\DATA\SCRIPTS\
To remove the issue with some 3D models see this post https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 20#p910108
[/quote]

Thank's for the hint.
I'm now playing the battle of Mollwitz and I must say it's really intriguing.
Great work Cronos09!!!
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Lysimachos »

Just one more question.
The battles now (after deleting the BSF file) can be played only with one side.
Is this normal or I miss something?
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Re: 18th Century mod right here Frederick the Great Age of Reaso

Post by Cronos09 »

Lysimachos wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:55 pm Thank's for the hint.
I'm now playing the battle of Mollwitz and I must say it's really intriguing.
Great work Cronos09!!!
Not at all. You are playing James Manhattan's mod. My version is still in the making.
Lysimachos wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:56 pm Just one more question.
The battles now (after deleting the BSF file) can be played only with one side.
Is this normal or I miss something?
It is James' design of the battles.
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