Ever-Green League - 300 BC: CLOSED

[Holien]

So now I am in trouble...

7 Holien Carthaginian 340-281 BC challenges 6 kronenblatt Lysimachid 320-281 BC

[kronenblatt]

So now I am in trouble...

7 Holien Carthaginian 340-281 BC challenges 6 kronenblatt Lysimachid 320-281 BC

Not at all, not at all.

Challenge accepted.

[kronenblatt]

My understanding was that my surrender would have been treated ( quite correctly in my view) as a 40-0 win for Holien who was totally demolishing the Carthaginians. It seems wrong for the scoring system to penalise such a dominant performance by only granting him 1pt.

Can't really see why he should be seen as getting a 40%-0% win and 6p when the score at your surrender was 24%-14%.

Maybe the scoring in the event of a player surrender should reflect a victory for the non surrendering player ?

I'd prefer players to play it out and fight for each point on the table, instead of surrendering. In your example, you could potentially have reaped 1p for yourself by inflicting 1 more p.p., 14% to 15%. But if both of you agree on ending the game, the casualties at that time will be used for scoring, so you both better be happy about it.

[ericdoman1]

Holien (Gallic 300-101BC) Defeated devoncop (Carthginian 340-281BC with Numidian/Moorish allies ) - 14% to 24% - Carthage surrendered early

The Gallic Barbarian horde was descending upon the Carthage right flank and their general decided it was best to leave the field of battle before the horde started to roll up his flank. The left flank was fairing better but was being held (just) and it seemed that there was no way to prevent the Gallic units from overwhelming Carthage. The lone Elephant had become seperated from his support and was surrounded by fully stocked javelin units that were about to unleash a killer volley.

Thanks for the game and not sure how the scoring system will deal with a surrender before the game finished?

Open for new games... (Kronenblatt looks like I am allowed to play you now as I might be within reach of you?)

Updated.

You're getting 1p for inflicting 24%, devoncop gets 0p, with the game treated as a draw. I'm not really in favour of surrendering early, better to play it out even if foregone conclusion, and the new point system promotes that. For example, devoncop may have inflicted 1pp more and gained 1p instead of 0p, even if impossible to stop your win.

And yes, you're allowed to challenge me now, that's correct.

I agree with Devoncop here. Holien should receive better score. As a bit of gamesmanship, we could all surrender a game and so preventing our opponent from receiving a higher score. My suggestion is if a player resigns/concedes, you should use his score but his opponent should receive a score that would have given him an outright victory. In this case it would be 40 - 14 to Holien?

[kronenblatt]

Holien (Gallic 300-101BC) Defeated devoncop (Carthginian 340-281BC with Numidian/Moorish allies ) - 14% to 24% - Carthage surrendered early

The Gallic Barbarian horde was descending upon the Carthage right flank and their general decided it was best to leave the field of battle before the horde started to roll up his flank. The left flank was fairing better but was being held (just) and it seemed that there was no way to prevent the Gallic units from overwhelming Carthage. The lone Elephant had become seperated from his support and was surrounded by fully stocked javelin units that were about to unleash a killer volley.

Thanks for the game and not sure how the scoring system will deal with a surrender before the game finished?

Open for new games... (Kronenblatt looks like I am allowed to play you now as I might be within reach of you?)

Updated.

You're getting 1p for inflicting 24%, devoncop gets 0p, with the game treated as a draw. I'm not really in favour of surrendering early, better to play it out even if foregone conclusion, and the new point system promotes that. For example, devoncop may have inflicted 1pp more and gained 1p instead of 0p, even if impossible to stop your win.

And yes, you're allowed to challenge me now, that's correct.

I agree with Devoncop here. Holien should receive better score. As a bit of gamesmanship, we could all surrender a game and so preventing our opponent from receiving a higher score. My suggestion is if a player resigns/concedes, you should use his score but his opponent should receive a score that would have given him an outright victory. In this case it would be 40 - 14 to Holien?

As I mentioned above, better to not surrender at all but to play it out. Please keep in mind that this is a casual league, not really for the points and the scoring but more for the games themselves. So if an opponent is superior in a game, I'd suggest putting up the best resistance you can anyway, and in the end (if your resistance is not enough) allow him to win through his own efforts reaching the victory threshold instead of through surrender.

[devoncop]

I know Eric wasn't suggesting MY actions were gamesmanship ...I care not two hoots about points but I was just trying to be fair to Holien who deserved the full points for his performance in suggesting i am happy for him to get all the points. The only reason that he didn't was that I failed to understand the rules for a surrender.

Sorry again.

[Holien]

I agree with Kronenblatt, it would be better to fight to the end and I actually think Devoncop could have certainly done better than he thought, the Gallic War Bands can be very fragile and double drop at times.

I agree it looked bad for him but there were still options in game that could have been explored. I was quite surprised that it was ended but that is his choice.

Happy with 1 point and glad we tested the new scoring system with an edge case. So absolutely fine with 1 point and I am absolutely happy knowing that Ian acted in a gentlemanly manner.

[devoncop]

Cheers Holien.

On reflection I am going to withdraw from this League. I am someone who gets as much satisfaction from forcing an opponent to surrender ( though it rarely happens ) but Andreas perfectly understandably wants his scoring system to reward matches that go the distance .

Thanks to all my fine opponents in this League including of course Andreas himself and I will no doubt meet some of you on another foreign field soon

Ian

[ericdoman1]

Updated.

You're getting 1p for inflicting 24%, devoncop gets 0p, with the game treated as a draw. I'm not really in favour of surrendering early, better to play it out even if foregone conclusion, and the new point system promotes that. For example, devoncop may have inflicted 1pp more and gained 1p instead of 0p, even if impossible to stop your win.

And yes, you're allowed to challenge me now, that's correct.
[/quote]

Hi Andreas

It was a genuine mistake from Ian and if he had known the end result he would not have done it but only allowing H to have 1 point, means that both are penalised which I think is unfair.

It's a shame there is now way they could continue. Then again there is but I think it would be very time consuming. Andreas is it possible they could recreate the positions they are in by creating a scenario, using the editor/toolset?

I was able to do it on FOG I but have no idea how it is done on FOG II? Changing force size, how much ammo, cohesion etc

Cheers

Eric

[kronenblatt]

In which respect are both players penalised? Holien got 1p, much like he would have gained under the old rules, and seems to have no hard feelings. And devoncop got 0p, just like he proposed himself.

So I don't see the reason for making such a big deal out of this.

[Holien]

Eric I am truly happy with 1 point, I am not convinced the scoring system needed to change but I am happy that the result was a fair and within the rules so let's move on and enjoy playing with one another (hmmm too many Carry On films over Christmas)

[Aetius39]

Just my opinion but it seems to be a matter of splitting hairs. I think it's good to encourage playing to the end, for several reason: 1. It's more satisfying for the winner, 2. Even if it's a small chance, you could almost always come back do due the randomness involved in rolls, and 3. It's good sportsmanship for the loser who also can gain experience in getting beat badly. If I'm losing badly to someone, I always play to "stick it to them as best as I can" and/or to see how much I can come back from. As most people have said anyway, points don't matter to much, especially in this league. Lastly, if you're getting destroyed the game is not going to last long anyway, so why not just finish the last few turns? If it's more than a few turns, then it means you shouldn't surrender anyway as you have a chance!^^

Aetius

[SawyerK]

SawyerK with the Spanish Lusitanian army lost to Aetius39 leading the Samnites by 47 to 21.

The Spanish army had no unit capable of matching their opponent's Veteran Samnites who drilled through the center, right and left. The sole success of the Spaniards came from flank attacks by their cavalry but it was far too late in the game to matter at that point. Congratulations to my opponent who played very well.

[ericdoman1]

eric Kyrenean Greek challenges Aetius' Spanish Lusitanians

pw = aetius39

also sent by pm

Updated.

[kronenblatt]

@Yeferz01 and @deeter: how is this battle, started 2021-11-18, progressing?

12 Yeferz01 Indian 500 BC - 319 AD currently playing 9 deeter Syracusan 412-281 BC

[Holien]

Come on Deeter I have been waiting ages to play you...



BTW I hope you are OK I have seen California has been hit with extreme weather so I am hoping your log store is full...

Stay safe...

[Stew101]

Result.
Stew101 (Bosporan) defeats Karvon (Macedonian).

Score 45 - 14.

The Bosporans fielded a force reliant on the fire power of the mounted bows and LI it could field.
These were supported by lancers and a half dozen units of MI/HI.

The Bosporan infantry deployed on a 5x5 difficult hill on their right flank, with a good slope behind it. 'The Alamo'.
Meanwhile the rest of the Bosporan army concentrated on stripping away the Macedonian light infantry.
When this was accomplished they switched to weakening and picking off units of Macedonian hoplites and warbands.

Meanwhile at The Alamo, the outnumbered Bosporans MI held off and eventually defeated the more numerous Macedonian Theurophoroi.
The advantage of the top of the difficult hill helped, but the battle really swung on an exchange of flank charges.
The Macedonians got theirs in first, the Bosporan Theurophoroi disordered, but held.
The next turn the Bosporans returned the favour on the flanking Macedonian unit, who broke on contact.
It could have been quite different.

Thanks to Karvon for a challenging game.
Good luck with the Bosporans.

[kronenblatt]

7 Holien Carthaginian 340-281 BC draws with 6 kronenblatt Lysimachid 320-281 BC 65-62.

[Holien]

7 Holien Carthaginian 340-281 BC draws with 6 kronenblatt Lysimachid 320-281 BC 65-62.

Cheated of victory (and the dice gods are fickle entities) by a rallying Pike Block (note to self if a pike block is broken with a leader on it, keep attacking it!!!) and then Kronenblatt remembering how to use his Cavalry...

An absolute roller coaster of a game where weight of numbers started to tell but the Pike centre held their own long enough for the poorly used Cavalry to finally make a difference.

Excellent game with two heavy hitters one is on the ropes but makes a final come back to knock back the young pretender.

[kronenblatt]

... then Kronenblatt remembering how to use his Cavalry...
... An absolute roller coaster of a game where weight of numbers started to tell but the Pike centre held their own long enough for the poorly used Cavalry to finally make a difference. Excellent game with two heavy hitters one is on the ropes but makes a final come back to knock back the young pretender.

Fitting description! Thanks for game!

... note to self if a pike block is broken with a leader on it, keep attacking it!!!...

True, pikes are easily broken but also tend to rally later on, especially with a general attached, as you say.