Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

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w_michael
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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by w_michael » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:20 pm

Atropatene - Ulysisgrunt (1,000 FP) takes the high road, moving 4 areas, to attack Mountain Indians (1,200 FP) - SnuggleBunnies. The defender sets up the challenge in Middle Eastern Mountains.

The campaign map and score sheet have been updated (both page 14).

It is now time for MSN 8: Armenia - rbodleyscott
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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:24 pm

w_michael wrote:Atropatene - Ulysisgrunt (1,000 FP) takes the high road, moving 4 areas, to attack Mountain Indians (1,200 FP) - SnuggleBunnies. The defender sets up the challenge in Middle Eastern Mountains.

The campaign map and score sheet have been updated (both page 14).

It is now time for MSN 8: Armenia - rbodleyscott
We'll dip our toe in the water of attacking Parthia.
Richard Bodley Scott

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w_michael
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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by w_michael » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:11 pm

(via PM) Armenia - rbodleyscott (1,000 FP) moves 3 areas to attack Bactrian Kingdom - msaunders865 (1,200 FP). The defender sets up the challenge in Steppe.

Arab Tribes - iandavidsmith (1,000 FP) must move 4 areas to attack Mauryan Empire - TheGrayMouser (1,200 FP). The defender sets up the challenge in Tropical.

The campaign map and score sheet have been updated (page 14).

Game results are due: Tuesday Jan. 30th.
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:19 pm

Challenge up for hidde's invading Nabataeans again. Password is "pointlessrematch" (if it doesn't work put a space between the two words). :wink:

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by msaunders865 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:12 pm

Hey Will,

Are you sure Armenia is attacking me?

I thought he was invading Parthia... I'm Bactria...

Lemme know...

Mike Saunders

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:55 pm

w_michael wrote:(via PM)

Arab Tribes - iandavidsmith (1,000 FP) must move 4 areas to attack Mauryan Empire - TheGrayMouser (1,200 FP). The defender sets up the challenge in Tropical.

The campaign map and score sheet have been updated (page 14).

Game results are due: Tuesday Jan. 30th.
Challenge up, password: sheik

w_michael
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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by w_michael » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:21 pm

msaunders865 wrote:Hey Will,

Are you sure Armenia is attacking me?

I thought he was invading Parthia... I'm Bactria...

Lemme know...

Mike Saunders
Parthia was already in a battle. I PM'ed the options and he chose you in his PM back to me. You should feel special.
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:09 pm

It's too bad for me that Mouser and I's game timed out (my fault - I had to be out of town for several days).

The (now unofficial) results were 29% Mountain Indian - 56% Indian.

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by w_michael » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:47 pm

The Saka invaders were halted at the Hsiung-nu border (44% - 11%), losing their Commander-in-Chief and one Sub-General.

The Final Turn score sheet has been updated (page 14).
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by w_michael » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:37 am

I know the campaign isn't over yet, but I wanted to kick off a post mortem while people were still looking at this topic. First, I want to thank all of the participants who stuck with the campaign until the end even when some of the army lists were sub-optimal. Here are a few of my observations and comments about adapting the campaign system to FoG2:

a) Masses of Bowmen seem to be very versatile and powerful, with the two heads of the Overlord trees having ample quantities.

b) Horse archer armies are challenging to play and win with, unless the opponent is another horse archer army and both sides are evenly matched.

c) The campaign is not as fun and raucous as when played face to face with the group huddled around a huge campaign map to make the strategic moves.

d) Perhaps the campaign should only have been 5 turns. The campaign does not use the Swiss Chess pairing system so there is no mathematical calculation to ensure an uncontested winner. This campaign could have been called at the end of turn 5 when Nabataea drew MSN 1 because no one could defeat him and take over his vassal tree. As Mike C said though, others were playing for the third position. I didn't see the point in taking that away from them.

e) Tracking the loss of generals was a bit of bookkeeping that no player really enjoys. At least with the new Review Battlefield option at the end of the battle, and the fact that all armies will have four generals, it is pretty easy to count the number of generals left on the battlefield for each side. Without scoring victory points based on percentage losses, you need something to differentiate the scores of winners and losers. Otherwise every score will be a multiple of 20 and there will be a lot of ties. It also adds a little more value to generals.

f) Scoring 5 victory points per turn per vassal seemed OK to me. If it is too small then you might as well just play a tournament and not pretend that it is a campaign with strategic consequences of winning a battle. If the number is too high then players who win battles, but through the luck of the MSN draw are often on the defensive have no chance of winning the campaign.

g) I'm sure that Auto Force Selection isn't how most people play the game. I prefer it over Default Force Selection for two reasons. First, with DFS you get to choose your army composition
after reviewing the battlefield. That doesn't seem realistic to me. Second, with DSF you can min-max your army composition for each adversary in each round, something that no general was able to do. I'm also used to miniatures tournaments where you choose your army composition at the start, without knowing which armies your opponents have, and stick with it to the end. With AFS, you and your opponent each receive a generic army so it is fair to both parties. I'm not wedded to it though, so if most players wanted to play with DFS that's fine. The point is for everyone to have fun.

h) The 100 FP penalty for the attacker (to compensate for the opportunity to gain a vassal) turned out to be a big hurdle. That is too bad because the FP can only be adjusted in increments of 100, and the inability to have fun battles with slightly unequal forces compromises how many campaigns are run. Solving this is a toughie. Being down 100 FP or more is too big of a handicap. I was thinking of replacing that with a chance that the defender chooses the Map Type. For each battle the GM rolls a die. On a 1 - 4 the Map Type is Pot Luck, and on a 5+ the defender chooses. For each area the attacker moves through to arrive at the battle area one is added to the die roll (i.e. the defender is more likely to choose).

There is not too much that can be done in a campaign to address (a) and (b). Even with a point system, not all armies are equal. I suppose that you could give a handicap to some
armies with free victory points, but that would be very subjective and possibly be worse than the problem it is trying to solve. At least with this type of campaign system you will
occasionally battle nations on the other side of the campaign map for some variety.
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:32 am

Thank you for all your hard work Will. My only comment: I also prefer auto force selection.

Also - game posted for Ulysisgrunt. PW snuggles

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:00 pm

First of all, thanks for providing a very well-run campaign, Will. Having said that, I have to say that I didn't enjoy it all that much. I only had one chance to attack anyone and that was on the first turn. I won that battle but then immediately lost my conquest to a rebellion (that rule has been changed). After that I have been invaded 5 times in a row by armies that really cannot fight in open terrain against the Seleucids (except for the Ptolemaics). So that has scuppered any chance that I had of winning, even though I may end up unbeaten at the end of the tournament (that is not certain by any means though). To respond to some of your points . . .
w_michael wrote: Scoring 5 victory points per turn per vassal seemed OK to me. If it is too small then you might as well just play a tournament and not pretend that it is a campaign with strategic consequences of winning a battle. If the number is too high then players who win battles, but through the luck of the MSN draw are often on the defensive have no chance of winning the campaign.
I think the vassal trees need looking at. I heavily defeated the Nabataeans in one battle but it had no effect on their empire. Maybe a defeat should significantly increase the chances of rebellion?
I'm sure that Auto Force Selection isn't how most people play the game. I prefer it over Default Force Selection for two reasons. First, with DFS you get to choose your army composition
after reviewing the battlefield. That doesn't seem realistic to me. Second, with DSF you can min-max your army composition for each adversary in each round, something that no general was able to do. I'm also used to miniatures tournaments where you choose your army composition at the start, without knowing which armies your opponents have, and stick with it to the end. With AFS, you and your opponent each receive a generic army so it is fair to both parties. I'm not wedded to it though, so if most players wanted to play with DFS that's fine. The point is for everyone to have fun.
I absolutely hated the Auto Force Selection and I won't enter anything else where it is stipulated. It meant on one occasion that I was trying to fight a horse skirmisher army with a catapault, elephants and pike blocks. Surprise, surprise, the game was a draw. :twisted:
The 100 FP penalty for the attacker (to compensate for the opportunity to gain a vassal) turned out to be a big hurdle. That is too bad because the FP can only be adjusted in increments of 100, and the inability to have fun battles with slightly unequal forces compromises how many campaigns are run. Solving this is a toughie. Being down 100 FP or more is too big of a handicap. I was thinking of replacing that with a chance that the defender chooses the Map Type. For each battle the GM rolls a die. On a 1 - 4 the Map Type is Pot Luck, and on a 5+ the defender chooses. For each area the attacker moves through to arrive at the battle area one is added to the die roll (i.e. the defender is more likely to choose).
Yes, this idea might work. I didn't actually think that 100pts was too much to give away but maybe the stats say otherwise. I think Richard has the adjusting of army points by 50 instead of 100 on his wish list.

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by TheGrayMouser » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:33 pm

Thanks for running this Will!

feedback:

I like auto armies, as pointed out, picking your army selection after viewing the terrain seems a little gamey. Also, I would never get to play with such wonderfull units as Indian Cavalry if not for auto select ;)

The only negative for me was I did not like being a spectator most of the game ( as Pete pointed out) all my turns were late rolls so I was either just defending or the 2 times I had a choice I really didn't as there was only 1-2 enemies left to fight. Basically it was auto pilot, I just showed up to fight battles

Cheers!

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by msaunders865 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:00 pm

After several attempts to get this game set up, I think I've finally done it right.

For rbodleyscott--challenge is up. PW RoundSix.

Mike Saunders

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by devoncop » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:03 pm

I only joined at the end and as I mentioned in our game, agreeing with Pete auto selection is a no no for me going forward too. Two horse archer armies on a steppe is fine....a 100 point deficit was always going to be a problem but when auto select handed me extra units of irregular foot and light foot archers and less cavalry that was effectively game over.

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:28 am

I actually really like Indian cavalry. 20pts is nothing, and they can still run down lights and threaten flank attacks. You know, everything but fight.

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:49 am

Anders and myself have just agreed a 0-0 draw in our last match. Dreadful map for the Seleucids, but I was able to occupy the one large area of open ground that made it difficult for the Nabataeans to approach too closely.

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:48 am

stockwellpete wrote:I think Richard has the adjusting of army points by 50 instead of 100 on his wish list.
Yes, but it requires an engine change to allow it. I will move it up the priority list.
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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:06 am

msaunders865 wrote:After several attempts to get this game set up, I think I've finally done it right.

For rbodleyscott--challenge is up. PW RoundSix.

Mike Saunders
Accepted.
Richard Bodley Scott

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Re: Bactrian Empire Campaign 250 BC Gameplay

Post by TheGrayMouser » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:35 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
stockwellpete wrote:I think Richard has the adjusting of army points by 50 instead of 100 on his wish list.
Yes, but it requires an engine change to allow it. I will move it up the priority list.
10 would better, but ideally just the ability to type in the #.

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