The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

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Geffalrus
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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by Geffalrus » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:40 pm

I second Morbio's opinion.

I didn't realize the full tactical potential of light javelin horse until I received a thrashing from Rexhurley's Moorish army (it's still ongoing, so please pray for me). Skirmish armies are an interesting puzzle to solve, but seem to be working as intended.

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by Cunningcairn » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:01 am

Morbio wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:57 pm
I think skirmishers are just another part of the game. I can understand that they can be frustrating to play against, but often they are beatable with the right unit selection and the right tactics. I recently beat Rex's Numidian/Moorish army with the LA Ptolemiac army, it was a close run thing, but an interesting challenge. I accept there are probably some armies that couldn't win (but may not lose) against skirmisher armies, but that's just another facet of the game. I like the idea that armies should be like rock, paper, scissors, with some armies more challenging than others and some match-ups will be one sided. My preference is to keep the variation. The archer based armies were nerfed, now we are considering nerfing skirmishers, horde armies and superior impact foot armies. Let's please keep the variation in the game because I want to avoid games where armies armies are lined up and then march to melee and then a few rounds later someone wins.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration (and the challenge) but I reckon I face maybe 1 or 2 of these armies per season. So I accept the frustration to have the variation.
Well put!

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by klayeckles » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:16 am

i generally feel a bit naked if i'm outnumbered in the skirmisher department...but the ultra high skirmish armies never get picked in the leagues i've been in...which suggests to me that they aren't a good choice to win a division. and frustrating...YES. but remember frustration comes when the enemy doesn't do what you want her to do...which is just what a general ought to strive for. So facing a skirmish army demands some different tactics, and careful thought about unit choices. so i agree with Morbio.

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:32 am

OK, this does not seem to be "an issue" in the FOG2DL right now. I will leave this thread here today and then move it to "The Rally Point". Thanks for your input. :wink:

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by SpeedyCM » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:00 am

+1 to Morbio's post.

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by rexhurley » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:56 am

+1 to Morbio deve beat me with a Medium Foot impact army and Speedy is also up 36 to 4 a the moment.... enough said!

PS: I'm the only one to my knowledge that has been crazy enough to run these lists and okay I have been going well but in the end of the day its not easy grinding down mass HI, or Pike armies. Also note I originally took this list last season as a "piss take" because I was annoyed with my results with normal armies and bored, in the end of the day I have enjoyed it and the style of play, no different to Huns, Tartars, Dark Elves or Early WWII Russians on the tabletop some people don't like them but they are a challenge to win with them consistently due to how soft they actually are

Geffalrus
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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by Geffalrus » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:07 pm

rexhurley wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:56 am
+1 to Morbio deve beat me with a Medium Foot impact army and Speedy is also up 36 to 4 a the moment.... enough said!

PS: I'm the only one to my knowledge that has been crazy enough to run these lists and okay I have been going well but in the end of the day its not easy grinding down mass HI, or Pike armies. Also note I originally took this list last season as a "piss take" because I was annoyed with my results with normal armies and bored, in the end of the day I have enjoyed it and the style of play, no different to Huns, Tartars, Dark Elves or Early WWII Russians on the tabletop some people don't like them but they are a challenge to win with them consistently due to how soft they actually are
Karvon in my divisions also uses skirmish tactics, though he doesn't go all the way and use a "skirmish" army in the same sense that you do. Rather, he selects a lot of heavy cavalry and light troops, and then avoids melee combat until he hopefully has you strung out and/or worn down enough where his heavy cavalry are no longer at a disadvantage. His army is consistently hard to defeat, but also has a hard time securing victory.

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:19 pm

rexhurley wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:56 am
+1 to Morbio deve beat me with a Medium Foot impact army and Speedy is also up 36 to 4 a the moment.... enough said!

PS: I'm the only one to my knowledge that has been crazy enough to run these lists and okay I have been going well but in the end of the day its not easy grinding down mass HI, or Pike armies. Also note I originally took this list last season as a "piss take" because I was annoyed with my results with normal armies and bored, in the end of the day I have enjoyed it and the style of play, no different to Huns, Tartars, Dark Elves or Early WWII Russians on the tabletop some people don't like them but they are a challenge to win with them consistently due to how soft they actually are
Fair chirp!

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by paulmcneil » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:01 pm

No need to adjust numbers of skirmishers unless the lists are found to be historically inaccurate.
Paul McNeil

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by MikeMarchant » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm

A question for the historically better informed in our community:

FoG necessairly deals only with what occurs on the battlefield, but what occurs on the battlefield is not the whole story. In fact, I would dare suggest that it's the lesser part of war. This might mean that we do things on the battlefield, which might not be done on the battlefield historically.

If I was marching an army into a foreign territory and the inhabitans fielded and army of skirmishers against me, what would stop me from simply ignoring them, marching past, possibly waving, and then seizing their capital?

What possible threat could they pose me if they invaded my territory? Are they going to be able to seize a town or city?


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Geffalrus » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm

MikeMarchant wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm
A question for the historically better informed in our community:

FoG necessairly deals only with what occurs on the battlefield, but what occurs on the battlefield is not the whole story. In fact, I would dare suggest that it's the lesser part of war. This might mean that we do things on the battlefield, which might not be done on the battlefield historically.

If I was marching an army into a foreign territory and the inhabitans fielded and army of skirmishers against me, what would stop me from simply ignoring them, marching past, possibly waving, and then seizing their capital?

What possible threat could they pose me if they invaded my territory? Are they going to be able to seize a town or city?


Best Wishes

Mike
They'd steal your baggage train in the dead of night leaving you in dire straights.

They'd ambush and slaughter your foragers and scouts, decreasing your food on the march and leaving you blind.

They'd occupy strategic fortifications or choke points where your cavalry and heavy infantry could be useless and then stone/arrow/javelin anyone who got too close.

They'd shower anyone crossing a river with missiles.

They'd murder smaller garrisons in the dead of night allowing the more loyal local inhabitants to reestablish control.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:44 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm
MikeMarchant wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm
A question for the historically better informed in our community:

FoG necessairly deals only with what occurs on the battlefield, but what occurs on the battlefield is not the whole story. In fact, I would dare suggest that it's the lesser part of war. This might mean that we do things on the battlefield, which might not be done on the battlefield historically.

If I was marching an army into a foreign territory and the inhabitans fielded and army of skirmishers against me, what would stop me from simply ignoring them, marching past, possibly waving, and then seizing their capital?

What possible threat could they pose me if they invaded my territory? Are they going to be able to seize a town or city?


Best Wishes

Mike
They'd steal your baggage train in the dead of night leaving you in dire straights.

They'd ambush and slaughter your foragers and scouts, decreasing your food on the march and leaving you blind.

They'd occupy strategic fortifications or choke points where your cavalry and heavy infantry could be useless and then stone/arrow/javelin anyone who got too close.

They'd shower anyone crossing a river with missiles.

They'd murder smaller garrisons in the dead of night allowing the more loyal local inhabitants to reestablish control.
These are actions the French Resistance used in WW2. Annoying but not militarily significant. Any army of note would adapt and deal to this quite easily. FOG2 correctly details the troop types of each nation and therefore the troops allocated to the Numidians for example are correct with respect to their capabilities. However skirmisher armies were never a military threat hence no historic opponents troop types are adapted to specifically fight against them. As it is a game that needs to have opponents of more or less equal capability FOG2's point system increases the troop numbers of skirmisher armies to levels that never existed and are unrealistic. These nations used skirmisher tactics as they never had the manpower, technology, training and financial capability to do anything else. Skirmish tactics and the significance of what we term LF and LH in ancient battles was of military importance but scaled up to represent entire armies isn't and wasn't.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by MikeMarchant » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:08 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm
MikeMarchant wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm
A question for the historically better informed in our community:

FoG necessairly deals only with what occurs on the battlefield, but what occurs on the battlefield is not the whole story. In fact, I would dare suggest that it's the lesser part of war. This might mean that we do things on the battlefield, which might not be done on the battlefield historically.

If I was marching an army into a foreign territory and the inhabitans fielded and army of skirmishers against me, what would stop me from simply ignoring them, marching past, possibly waving, and then seizing their capital?

What possible threat could they pose me if they invaded my territory? Are they going to be able to seize a town or city?


Best Wishes

Mike
They'd steal your baggage train in the dead of night leaving you in dire straights.

They'd ambush and slaughter your foragers and scouts, decreasing your food on the march and leaving you blind.

They'd occupy strategic fortifications or choke points where your cavalry and heavy infantry could be useless and then stone/arrow/javelin anyone who got too close.

They'd shower anyone crossing a river with missiles.

They'd murder smaller garrisons in the dead of night allowing the more loyal local inhabitants to reestablish control.
Sounds like the tactics of the Ancient Brits against the Romans, but these light troops were only able to achieve this because there is also a large army on their side keeping the legions busy. Without that large army the legions would simply have put every village and town in the affected area to the torch and the resistance would have nowhere to sleep at night. Tactics that served the 20th C Brits very well in the Far East.

Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SpeedyCM » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:04 am

Also the tactics the Persians and Parthians used against numerous Roman invasions until the Romans gave up and went home.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:43 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:44 pm
These are actions the French Resistance used in WW2. Annoying but not militarily significant. Any army of note would adapt and deal to this quite easily. FOG2 correctly details the troop types of each nation and therefore the troops allocated to the Numidians for example are correct with respect to their capabilities. However skirmisher armies were never a military threat hence no historic opponents troop types are adapted to specifically fight against them. As it is a game that needs to have opponents of more or less equal capability FOG2's point system increases the troop numbers of skirmisher armies to levels that never existed and are unrealistic. These nations used skirmisher tactics as they never had the manpower, technology, training and financial capability to do anything else. Skirmish tactics and the significance of what we term LF and LH in ancient battles was of military importance but scaled up to represent entire armies isn't and wasn't.
The Germans were more than just annoyed by the French Resistance. The Wehrmacht was most certainly an army of note, and though it tried to adapt, it never dealt with it easily. Military solutions to guerrilla attacks and insurgency are actually extremely costly and difficult, requiring large amounts of manpower and enough dedication to separate civilians from the resistance through extensive concentration camps. The much, much more effective method for dealing with insurgents is through diplomacy, negotiation, and money.

Also, you can't cost effectively adapt troop types to fight skirmishers on their own terms. Romans, Carthaginians, and Macedonians would instead go with the much cheaper method of hiring locals who were already skilled. Fighting horse archers? Hire local horse archers. Horse archery is a skill you need to have learned from an early age to be truly combat proficient. You can't just get trained for a few months and expect to compete. Same goes with foot skirmishers. All major powers utilized locals who were experienced with the terrain and combat of the enemy in question.

I do generally agree that many of the army comparisons result in weird matches because the armies are artificially drawn from even point values, which isn't what happened in history. That being said, Steppe Nomads fielded what we'd call skirmisher armies, and they have a very strong historical track record of conquest. Scythians. Parthians. Huns. Magyar. Mongols.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Karvon » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:37 am

What I'd like to see developed is an operational level multiplayer campaign game that would (optionally) kick in to fight engagements using FOG2. This would allow for more interesting options for scouting, ambushes, flank marches and encirclements.

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by rexhurley » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:40 am

Geffalrus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:07 pm
rexhurley wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:56 am
+1 to Morbio deve beat me with a Medium Foot impact army and Speedy is also up 36 to 4 a the moment.... enough said!

PS: I'm the only one to my knowledge that has been crazy enough to run these lists and okay I have been going well but in the end of the day its not easy grinding down mass HI, or Pike armies. Also note I originally took this list last season as a "piss take" because I was annoyed with my results with normal armies and bored, in the end of the day I have enjoyed it and the style of play, no different to Huns, Tartars, Dark Elves or Early WWII Russians on the tabletop some people don't like them but they are a challenge to win with them consistently due to how soft they actually are
Karvon in my divisions also uses skirmish tactics, though he doesn't go all the way and use a "skirmish" army in the same sense that you do. Rather, he selects a lot of heavy cavalry and light troops, and then avoids melee combat until he hopefully has you strung out and/or worn down enough where his heavy cavalry are no longer at a disadvantage. His army is consistently hard to defeat, but also has a hard time securing victory.
Numidian and Moor lists don't have any heavy cav cuz. Early list only gets 2 Nellies, middle list some pretend legions, late list nada

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Karvon » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:35 am

I actually used the late Moors in last season's DL. The lack of any heavy shock troops was a challenge; I ended 3-3-3 with them. I probably could've done a little better but was overly aggressive in a couple of early games and ran afoul of a stream which caused my guys to get trapped into some unplanned melees in another game. They were fun though.

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Re: dkalenda has won Classical Antiquity Division A!

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:08 pm

devoncop wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:38 pm
So the winner of the top Division in the entire League wins with a regular none Medium Infantry spam army.

Almost like all the demands to regulate low quality massed armies was a bit .....you know....pointless😉
Really?

The two armies that stand out for having lots of low cost, low quality units (both HF and MF) are the Romano-British and the Kingdom of Soissons. They do not feature in the Classical Antiquity section. In Late Antiquity this time the winning army in each section was as follows . . .
Division A - Romano-British
Division B - very likely to be Kingdom of Soissons
Division C - Ostrogoths (Romano-British finished eighth)
Division D - Kingdom of Soissons

The Romano-British also featured in Division B of Early Middle Ages and finished second.

So these two armies have had very successful seasons and will be among the armies with the best win ratios.

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Re: dkalenda has won Classical Antiquity Division A!

Post by devoncop » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:14 pm

That is true but in season 1 of FOGDL massed archers dominated. These things change as folks learn to counter particular armies.

My point is that the winner of Div A could have chosen a cheap massed infantry army even in VS but didn't and he won fair and square without help from rule restrictions.

Like you have said though, you are introducing those rules and if folk want to enter they need to be able to accept them.

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