The poll on player army choices is now closed . . . 23-20 in favour of no change

Moderator: Field of Glory 2 Tournaments Managers

Should we change the army selection rule?

Poll ended at Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:06 pm

1. Yes
20
47%
2. No
23
53%
 
Total votes: 43

stockwellpete
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The poll on player army choices is now closed . . . 23-20 in favour of no change

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:06 pm

Towards the end of our discussion in the thread (with a poll) about the new allies feature, pantherboy wrote this about the way he used to organise the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (LOEG) back in the days of FOG1 . . .

"Each season players are not allowed to reselect an army list they have chosen in a previous season until they have played 5 different lists with each list originating from a different nation. I wish to encourage variety within the league and broaden players play styles."

I am wondering whether enough players feel that a similar approach is preferable for the FOG2DL? While I have no intention at all of checking back through five seasons to make sure players are choosing different armies, we could have a much simpler rule that says that players must pick an army from a different nation each season in each tournament section that they enter. So that would mean a player having a particular fondness for, say, the Romano-British or Jewish Revolt armies, could only have the chance to play with them in the tournament every second season, and not in consecutive seasons as at present. I have already adjusted the army lists so that no army is available in more than one tournament section so that players cannot use the same army twice in the same season.

There are probably a few anomalous armies such as the Diadochi group that should be specified as one "nation" for the purpose of this rule. Please suggest any other candidates for this designation.

The poll will run for 10 days and you may change your vote at any time.

CLARIFICATION

JUST IN CASE THERE IS ANY CONFUSION - ALL THAT IS BEING PROPOSED IS THAT IF YOU USE AN ARMY IN ONE SEASON THEN YOU CANNOT USE IT AGAIN IN THE NEXT SEASON.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by Geffalrus » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:15 pm

I feel that the priority order of picking (lowest rank to highest within a division) already works to limit the ability of players to ride a single army to victory. The better the army list, the more likely someone else is to pick it ahead of you the higher ranked you are.

I also think players are more likely to pick new armies the more the play and the more bored with one approach they get. Honestly, I just don't see the advantage in not allowing people the freedom to stick with an army they like.

The only reason I play Classical is to take my favorite pike army through a tournament. If that's off the table due to rules (rather than an increase in their popularity), then I'll be less interested in participating in that division. At some point I'll get bored and experiment, but that's not gonna happen for a few seasons.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by devoncop » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:20 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:15 pm
I feel that the priority order of picking (lowest rank to highest within a division) already works to limit the ability of players to ride a single army to victory. The better the army list, the more likely someone else is to pick it ahead of you the higher ranked you are.

I also think players are more likely to pick new armies the more the play and the more bored with one approach they get. Honestly, I just don't see the advantage in not allowing people the freedom to stick with an army they like.

The only reason I play Classical is to take my favorite pike army through a tournament. If that's off the table due to rules (rather than an increase in their popularity), then I'll be less interested in participating in that division. At some point I'll get bored and experiment, but that's not gonna happen for a few seasons.
Agree fully with the above.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:05 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:15 pm
I feel that the priority order of picking (lowest rank to highest within a division) already works to limit the ability of players to ride a single army to victory. The better the army list, the more likely someone else is to pick it ahead of you the higher ranked you are.
At the moment players who are rated in the top places in a division, particularly in the A divisions which tend to be more stable in their composition from season to season, never know which army they are going to get, whereas players who receive their army allocation before the better players have a much greater chance of getting their preferred army. For instance, players who finish 6th, 7th or 8th know that they are very likely to get their first choice of army in the next season.This means that certain armies are never, or hardly ever, available to the higher rated players. One way to mitigate this a little bit is to say that players cannot have an army from the same nation in consecutive seasons. I think it is a very mild regulation, to be honest, given the number of armies (with different allied options) that are available now.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by harveylh » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:12 am

I'm voting no because I do not want to discourage any player.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by klayeckles » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:19 am

i will just comment that the LOEG did definitely encourage players to explore other armies...and i think playing other army types greatly improves a players skill set. I guessing my opponents will agree that my Having played predominant cav-shooter armies in early spear eras several times has made me a much better cav commander (and a bit more humble). definitely don't want to lose players...but encourage folks to look at all sides of the issue...mixing it up keeps things fresh and your tactics progressing. (and freshness might keep some folks involved that would otherwise not). so i'm not "voting", just adding to the discussion.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by rexhurley » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:32 am

Current restrictions with allocation based on stats is the best, why punish us for being noobs? Take away our choices you just condemn us to be forever cellar dwellers...not thats a bad thing the lofty heights of Div A and getting constantly boringly massacred by Pantherboy is just yawn...

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:01 am

rexhurley wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:32 am
Current restrictions with allocation based on stats is the best, why punish us for being noobs? Take away our choices you just condemn us to be forever cellar dwellers...not thats a bad thing the lofty heights of Div A and getting constantly boringly massacred by Pantherboy is just yawn...
Can I have a pint of what you've just had please? Quite how your answer relates to the question is beyond me. No-one is being "punished" or having choices taken away in a way that privileges the top players. Everyone will be affected equally by this very mild adjustment to the army selection process.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:06 am

harveylh wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:12 am
I'm voting no because I do not want to discourage any player.
I don't understand. How will players be "discouraged"? :? At the very most players will be asked to choose just one different army in their selections each season.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by Karvon » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:47 am

I think the current restrictions are sufficient, though I wouldn't be bothered if such a change was implemented. While I personally like to try new lists, I wouldn't begrudge someone the option of sticking with their favorite. Depending on seeding, they may not get it anyhow. Has this really been an issue so far? Have a significant number of players played the same lists? Do you really want the added work of checking lists against the previous season to insure no one's duplicating?

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:19 am

Karvon wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:47 am
I think the current restrictions are sufficient, though I wouldn't be bothered if such a change was implemented. While I personally like to try new lists, I wouldn't begrudge someone the option of sticking with their favorite. Depending on seeding, they may not get it anyhow. Has this really been an issue so far? Have a significant number of players played the same lists? Do you really want the added work of checking lists against the previous season to insure no one's duplicating?
I am not really too bothered about it, to be honest, as I do not enter the tournament myself. I have already altered the army lists so that each army only appears once in the tournament lists from Season 6 onwards. But as pantherboy took the trouble to post his method from the old LOEG I have decided to poll it to see if it will fly here. The added work will amount to very little as players will quickly start to self-regulate their choices if such a rule were to be introduced. The issue is not so much about the number of players continually using the same lists but is rather more about certain armies never being available for any of the higher rated players in a division. A player rated 3 or 4 receiving such an army as a result of this proposal might very well be in a position to challenge for the top spot and/or win a voucher in the future whereas now they tend to finish mid-table. I do find it a bit boring to see that certain armies end up with the same players season after season. I think the tournament should try and take players out of their comfort zone a bit from time to time.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by Bluefin » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:22 am

With the current season, I decided to select armies I'm not very familiar with and having a blast and will continue to do this in the future. Love the Syracusans, not so much the Franks. That said, I don't think a rule like this is necessary. I think the current selection system is fine. Granted, I'm generally not a very good player (I have "moments" of greatness, though) and know that the odds of me progressing up the ranks is rather slim even if I play the same army every season. But it's a great game, the digital league and tournaments are great fun, and the people involved have been fantastic. Already have my eye on an army that I have never seen anybody select yet so looking forward to the next season!

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:31 am

For my part, I quite like the idea. As with the FoG1 digital league, I find myself agonising over which army to take for competitive games and always want to try something new. I vacillate, I agonise, and inevitably I always selet my trusty Romans - simply because I know what I'm doing with them (to the limit of my lowly abilities) and I would like to do well. Having this new restriction would relieve me of that particular struggle and force me to pick something new. That would be good.

Having said that, I would not want to impose a restriction on other players on the basis of my own weakness.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by Morbio » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:33 am

I vote no because, whilst I appreciate the downside for the top players, I think the biggest risk is making the lower players play with armies they are unfamiliar with or aren't good with. This risks them getting hammered and this may be something that may deter entry.

I experimented this time with the Indo-Greek army, something I've never played with before, and I'm struggling to compete with it. I can live with this, at least for now, but I wouldn't want others to have the same fate without a conscious decision.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:49 am

Bluefin wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:22 am
Already have my eye on an army that I have never seen anybody select yet so looking forward to the next season!
Well now I'm super curious. That's very exciting and I hope it goes well next season! :D

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by harveylh » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:59 am

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:06 am
harveylh wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:12 am
I'm voting no because I do not want to discourage any player.
I don't understand. How will players be "discouraged"? :? At the very most players will be asked to choose just one different army in their selections each season.
Pete, I do not have a problem with the proposal. However, I know some players who want to play only certain armies. In order to retain as many players in our league as possible, I believe the proposal is an unnecessary restriction.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 pm

Morbio wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:33 am
I vote no because, whilst I appreciate the downside for the top players, I think the biggest risk is making the lower players play with armies they are unfamiliar with or aren't good with. This risks them getting hammered and this may be something that may deter entry.
I don't think this argument really works as it would not affect new players at all in their first season and by the time players enter their second season 4 months later they should definitely be able to use more than one army.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:10 pm

harveylh wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:59 am
Pete, I do not have a problem with the proposal. However, I know some players who want to play only certain armies. In order to retain as many players in our league as possible, I believe the proposal is an unnecessary restriction.
It's only Rex "the Numidian" we have to worry about. I'll have a word with his elephants. :P

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by Morbio » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:20 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:06 pm
Morbio wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:33 am
I vote no because, whilst I appreciate the downside for the top players, I think the biggest risk is making the lower players play with armies they are unfamiliar with or aren't good with. This risks them getting hammered and this may be something that may deter entry.
I don't think this argument really works as it would not affect new players at all in their first season and by the time players enter their second season 4 months later they should definitely be able to use more than one army.
I think you misunderstand my comments, or you underestimate how long it can take to get good with specific armies, especially for the casual player. I've been playing for a few seasons now and I've taken different types of armies to give me some variation. I don't tend to play outside of league matches, so the league matches are my main learning time (yes, I agree, that's not a great way to learn if I want to be competitive) and it can be hard learning. As stated, my Indo-Greek army of this season is a hard struggle, playing pike armies takes a different sort of play, impact foot another and warband armies yet another. Some people might not mind this, but others may be deterred, whether this is a real or only in ones mind.

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Re: Poll on player army choices restriction

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:38 pm

Morbio wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:20 pm
I think you misunderstand my comments, or you underestimate how long it can take to get good with specific armies, especially for the casual player. I've been playing for a few seasons now and I've taken different types of armies to give me some variation. I don't tend to play outside of league matches, so the league matches are my main learning time (yes, I agree, that's not a great way to learn if I want to be competitive) and it can be hard learning. As stated, my Indo-Greek army of this season is a hard struggle, playing pike armies takes a different sort of play, impact foot another and warband armies yet another. Some people might not mind this, but others may be deterred, whether this is a real or only in ones mind.
Yes, but in your first season you have to pick 4 armies however short a time you have been playing the game - and then you get allocated one of them (not necessarily your first choice if there are a lot of new players in your division). For your second season selection you can still choose the 3 armies you didn't get allocated last time, but you would not be able to choose the army you have already played with. So you would, at minimum, need to add just one more army to your new list of 4. Given that a new player could have been allocated any one of the first 4 armies selected in his first season I cannot see how that is a problem if he then gets one of them in his second season. Surely he will be more experienced by then? And given that new players do not usually know what the most popular armies are when they start out their choices barely impact on the issue of certain armies never being available to the higher rated players in their division.

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