Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

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Would you be in favour of moving to larger 1600pt armies in all sections of the FOG2 Digital League?

Poll ended at Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:04 pm

1. Yes
34
56%
2. No
27
44%
 
Total votes: 61

devoncop
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by devoncop » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:27 pm

Karvon wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:05 pm
I, for one, would definitely not play in divisions with 1600 pt defaults.

Whereas I intend to take the opposite approach. I have already decided to only enter the 1600 pts default Divisions next season having seen how this season has gone despite them not being my preferred eras.

Horses for courses I guess.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by devoncop » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:29 pm

nyczar wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:10 pm
pantherboy wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm
To be honest I think someone who prefers playing large battles is more likely to acquiesce with being required to play mid size rather than vice versa. Setting large as the default would probably cause some player attrition while medium would not. Also for players that perceive the size of the battle as taking noticeably more additional time that fact may limit their involvement in how many Divisions they sign up for.
+1

i understand that the vote is influencing the consideration. Those that like larger battles have played at the 1200 point level. no one has said they didn't play because of the medium size, but many have warned they dont want to play larger.

Edit: note, I voted for large.
Not true.

That is exactly my position going forward.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Swuul » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:33 am

devoncop wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:27 pm
Whereas I intend to take the opposite approach. I have already decided to only enter the 1600 pts default Divisions next season having seen how this season has gone despite them not being my preferred eras.
I am thinking same. This season I've enjoyed most the Biblical (where I got roflstomped in most matches, but I still had fun even though being beaten, because I think I understand *why* I was beaten) and EMA, as they felt to me to be more tactical and I felt I was more in control of things going on. The 1200 point eras to me feels much more like I am rolling the dice and then see what happens, and then attempt to adjust to the dice-results. I love the Classic Antiq era, but I think I'll skip it next season (yes, I know there will be a possibility some games will be 1600 points, but the thought of have to choose an army before the season starts and before you know if majority of matches will be 1200 or 1600 points matches (especially as those who prefer 1200 point matches *know* they will be playing 1200 point matches only) just doesn't tickle me the right way).
There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by SLancaster » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:54 am

My personal view would be to keep it all more or less as it is. People feel strongly on both sides. Adding options adds confusion. I guess if we expect to play 1200 pts in Classical and two players come together who want 1600 pts then all well and good.

Classical and Late Antiquity at 1200 pts
Biblical and Early Middle Ages at 1600 pts

You have half and half to keep everyone happy. I would rather play everything at 1200 myself (when setting up a game you have to go back to remembering what the heck the points total is supposed to be for a particular section). Guaranteed that with the number of players some will set up games with the wrong points total.

At least if you fix the points as suggested above people will be less likely to get confused, everyone can choose which section to join, and more importantly, have fun.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:25 am

We are going to do the trial in Classical Antiquity next season. I do like the idea of players choosing their preference of 1200 or 1600pts and hopefully it can be rolled out right across the tournament in Season 10 so that all sections will be operating with the same system. I don't expect too many problems but it will require players to check the first post in the "Arrange Your Matches Here" threads to make sure they have set up the match correctly. One of the things the trial will do is show how much confusion (i.e. wrong set ups) there is likely to be. There will probably be a bit at the beginning because some players do not read any instructions, but after a few weeks I think everything will settle down. There is a difference between introducing a new system into a smaller tournament and a much bigger one like the FOG2DL though.

My only concern is the proportion of matches played under the new system at 1200 and 1600pts. At the moment, in the core league sections (so excluding the Themed Event which has a separate format) the matches are split 50/50 between 1200 and 1600 although Biblical (at 1600) is half the size of the other sections and will likely stay that way until another DLC from the period is released. And the poll showed a slight preference for more 1600pt matches. So I don't really want the proportion of matches at 1600pts regularly falling below 50%, although if they come in at a range of between 40% and 60% across the various sections of the tournament then that will be OK, I think.

The Themed Event has been struggling to attract players for some time now and may not survive when we open up the Late Medieval section. But we might be able to give it a new lease of life if we make it completely a 1600pt section, possibly with the option of playing at 2000pts for those that like the bigger battles. That would increase the proportion of larger battles offered in any season by a few percentage points.

I don't think this is an issue that should cause people to drop out. There is not that much of a difference between 1200 and 1600pts, although I can understand if some players enter only 3 sections instead of 4 because of the time factor. But it is not like we are using different rules or anything. The other thing I am not sure about is whether some players will mix their default selections so that they get a better balance of matches throughout the season.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Swuul » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:11 am

SLancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:54 am
You have half and half to keep everyone happy.
Not quite true though. Classic Antiq is the most popular era and has the biggest variety of competetive armies to choose from. I personally would find it a more "everyone happy" -solution if the 1200 and 1600 point divisions would rotate from season to season. I quite well understand Pete's reluctance to this, as it would make comparing seasons with each other problematic, and very likely would lead to people who like 1600 points to skip the 1200 point seasons and vice versa (meaning the league admin would have more work at the start of each season shuffling slots in the divisions for all the people not joining this season or coming back for this season).

As it is going to be (after next season, if things go as Pete has roadmapped), people in the future *have to* choose an army which is competetive in 1200 points, no matter if they themselves would prefer to play 1600 points (and might get to play a couple 1600 point matches each season). Personally I feel this is in fact a worse model than the current model. Now I at least have a choice to play 1600 point battles (even though not in my favourite era), in the future I am forced to play 1200 point battles no matter what era I choose (as 1200 point battles will be the default, and I have organised enough gaming and sports events the past few decades so many times I know most people won't read any rules, and choose what ever is default, and then wonder why things are not what they expected).
There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by SLancaster » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:53 am

Swuul wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:11 am
SLancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:54 am
You have half and half to keep everyone happy.
Not quite true though. Classic Antiq is the most popular era and has the biggest variety of competetive armies to choose from. I personally would find it a more "everyone happy" -solution if the 1200 and 1600 point divisions would rotate from season to season. I quite well understand Pete's reluctance to this, as it would make comparing seasons with each other problematic, and very likely would lead to people who like 1600 points to skip the 1200 point seasons and vice versa (meaning the league admin would have more work at the start of each season shuffling slots in the divisions for all the people not joining this season or coming back for this season).

As it is going to be (after next season, if things go as Pete has roadmapped), people in the future *have to* choose an army which is competetive in 1200 points, no matter if they themselves would prefer to play 1600 points (and might get to play a couple 1600 point matches each season). Personally I feel this is in fact a worse model than the current model. Now I at least have a choice to play 1600 point battles (even though not in my favourite era), in the future I am forced to play 1200 point battles no matter what era I choose (as 1200 point battles will be the default, and I have organised enough gaming and sports events the past few decades so many times I know most people won't read any rules, and choose what ever is default, and then wonder why things are not what they expected).
We are basically in agreement. I organise some tournaments as well and you have to make things clear and unambiguous.

The way I see it, the present format has just come about and this is where we are. The Digital League has been very successful so why change it dramatically? Rotation of points per season and choice of points depending on the player seems a bit confusing, I think.

I think in the other tournaments larger armies are used. Half of the Digital League uses large armies so it is already there.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Swuul » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:16 am

SLancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:53 am
Half of the Digital League uses large armies so it is already there.
Correction, 9/21=43% of Digital League uses 1600 point armies, 57% uses 1200 point armies. In this poll 56% informed they would want to use larger armies. That is quite a difference, one would like to say the exact opposite.
There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by SLancaster » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:29 pm

Swuul wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:16 am
SLancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:53 am
Half of the Digital League uses large armies so it is already there.
Correction, 9/21=43% of Digital League uses 1600 point armies, 57% uses 1200 point armies. In this poll 56% informed they would want to use larger armies. That is quite a difference, one would like to say the exact opposite.
I don’t know what you mean. Two sections use 1600 and two sections use 1200. There is Themed which I didn’t count. What is that? Yes, as I said, strong support on both sides.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Cunningcairn » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:19 pm

SLancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:29 pm
Swuul wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:16 am
SLancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:53 am
Half of the Digital League uses large armies so it is already there.
Correction, 9/21=43% of Digital League uses 1600 point armies, 57% uses 1200 point armies. In this poll 56% informed they would want to use larger armies. That is quite a difference, one would like to say the exact opposite.
I don’t know what you mean. Two sections use 1600 and two sections use 1200. There is Themed which I didn’t count. What is that? Yes, as I said, strong support on both sides.
The Themed event is another section. Three sections use 1200 points and 2 sections use 1600 points yet the majority of players prefer 1600 points. As stated by Swuul it should be the other way around.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by gamercb » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:25 pm

I would prefer to know at the start whether the section is 1200 or 1600 pts. Allowing players to decide leaves this unclear. I can choose whether I want to join a section of a particular size (as long as I do so before the close date!)

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Jagger2002 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:18 am

Well we have somehow managed a split community.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by GDod » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:48 am

Shakespeare once wrote, "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our points, But in ourselves, that we are underlings.”

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:44 am

gamercb wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:25 pm
I would prefer to know at the start whether the section is 1200 or 1600 pts. Allowing players to decide leaves this unclear. I can choose whether I want to join a section of a particular size (as long as I do so before the close date!)
Well, you will know what the default size of the armies will be - and if you choose that size then all your matches will be played at that size.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by General Shapur » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:50 am

The mechanics of choosing points before the battle will add another messaging step to what is already cut and paste intensive. My first choice would be to leave as is if increasing for all battles isn't on the cards

I generally end up setting up 80-90 percent of my games, so would it be OK set up as 1600 pointers and ask opponents to set up alternatives if they want to play meduim, I think this will save me time and messaging. I prefer larger games, most people don't like to initiate the set up.
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:36 am

General Shapur wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:50 am
The mechanics of choosing points before the battle will add another messaging step to what is already cut and paste intensive. My first choice would be to leave as is if increasing for all battles isn't on the cards
No, it will not. Players will express a preference for medium or large battles before the season starts. That preference will be shown in the first post of each "Arrange Your Matches Here" thread. Players will just match their own preferred size of battle with the preferred size of their opponent. If they are same size, no problem. If they are different sizes, the match will be played at the default size.
I generally end up setting up 80-90 percent of my games, so would it be OK set up as 1600 pointers and ask opponents to set up alternatives if they want to play meduim, I think this will save me time and messaging. I prefer larger games, most people don't like to initiate the set up.
Not necessary. See my previous answer.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Badger73 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:30 pm

If my opinion has any bearing, I favor retaining 1200 pt divisions/options. I'm a relatively experienced H2H FOG2 player who intends to participate for the first time in the October 2020 DL. I find 1600 pt games too large for my tastes, especially if I need to finish nine (9) games in the allotted time-frame. I'm much more inclined to limit myself to the 1200 pt divisions instead even though I have great interest in the 1600 pt divisional army lists. I suspect most other newbies will concur. I am looking forward to joining DL play.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:35 pm

Badger73 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:30 pm
If my opinion has any bearing, I favor retaining 1200 pt divisions/options. I'm a relatively experienced H2H FOG2 player who intends to participate for the first time in the October 2020 DL. I find 1600 pt games too large for my tastes, especially if I need to finish nine (9) games in the allotted time-frame. I'm much more inclined to limit myself to the 1200 pt divisions instead even though I have great interest in the 1600 pt divisional army lists. I suspect most other newbies will concur. I am looking forward to joining DL play.
Next season will be a mixed season. Classical Antiquity will trial this new idea of pantherboy where players will nominate their preference for 1200 or 1600 point matches. I think the default size will be set at 1200pts so players preferring 1200pts will play all their matches at that size. Players who prefer 1600pts will only play at that size against each other. Then Late Antiquity and the Themed Event will continue at 1200pts and Early Middle Ages and Biblical at 1600pts next season.

If the trial is successful then it will be rolled out right across the tournament in Season 10. The only concern I have at the moment is that the proportion of 1600pts battles will actually drop as a result of this change. We'll have to see what happens. :wink:

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by desertedfox » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:07 pm

Hi Pete, assuming it all goes well nest season with the trial. Istead of then rolling out all periods deafult 1200 pts (if I am reading it correctly) with player option for 1600, why not split it with 2 periods at 1200 default and 2 periods at 1600?

The way you currently have it, and I could be wrong. every player who prefers 1200 pts will play every game at that level, and the 1600 pointers will be ucky if they get 50%.

Am I reading what you are saying incorrectly?

Cheers,

Mark

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:40 pm

desertedfox wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:07 pm
Hi Pete, assuming it all goes well nest season with the trial. Istead of then rolling out all periods deafult 1200 pts (if I am reading it correctly) with player option for 1600, why not split it with 2 periods at 1200 default and 2 periods at 1600?

The way you currently have it, and I could be wrong. every player who prefers 1200 pts will play every game at that level, and the 1600 pointers will be ucky if they get 50%.

Am I reading what you are saying incorrectly?

Cheers,

Mark
No, you are not reading it incorrectly. One of the things that I am not sure about at the moment is if players will mix their preferences between 1200 and 1600pts. I think it is likely to be wrong to assume that everyone will choose either just 1200pts or just 1600pts. One possibility is to split the default preferences as you say, 2 sections and the Themed Event at default 1600pts, 2 sections at default 1200pts and that would be in line with the poll. Some people have quite correctly pointed out that the battles in Classical and Late Antiquity were often very large scale whereas those in Early Middle Ages could be smaller. Biblical could switch to 1200pts too. So maybe the smart move for Season 10 would be to split it that way. I am loathe to make too many changes because some people do not read the instructions and will get muddled up, but maybe judicious use of LARGE FONT in the invitation PM will help. :lol:

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