Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Moderator: Field of Glory 2 Tournaments Managers

Would you be in favour of moving to larger 1600pt armies in all sections of the FOG2 Digital League?

Poll ended at Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:04 pm

1. Yes
34
56%
2. No
27
44%
 
Total votes: 61

pantherboy
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pantherboy » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:02 am

What you could do is make large battles optional where if both parties would like to use large armies than they are permitted to use said format for their match. If either player would prefer medium size than it automatically defaults to medium. To minimize administration when players sign up for a league with army preferences they would also be required to indicate whether they would like large/medium battles. It doesn't add significantly to administration and places the onus on players to identify which matches will be large as opposed to medium.

For example:

Sign me up for EMA.

1. Arab Conquest
2. French
3. German
4. Dailami

Battle size: Large

Once the administrator has allocated players to divisions with army selection they would post the divisions as such:

EMA Division A

1. player 1 (Arab Conquest) medium battles
2. player 2 (Germans) medium battles
3. player 3 (Dailami) large battles
etc.

All that is required now for players is to take note of their opponents preference when setting up the challenge. If your opponent agrees to large as indicated by preference than set it up as large otherwise as medium.

I think this could work and could be applied broadly over every division as long as players are willing to respect each others preferences without applying any stigma to those who prefer medium.

stockwellpete
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:51 am

pantherboy wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:02 am
What you could do is make large battles optional where if both parties would like to use large armies than they are permitted to use said format for their match. If either player would prefer medium size than it automatically defaults to medium. To minimize administration when players sign up for a league with army preferences they would also be required to indicate whether they would like large/medium battles. It doesn't add significantly to administration and places the onus on players to identify which matches will be large as opposed to medium.

For example:

Sign me up for EMA.

1. Arab Conquest
2. French
3. German
4. Dailami

Battle size: Large

Once the administrator has allocated players to divisions with army selection they would post the divisions as such:

EMA Division A

1. player 1 (Arab Conquest) medium battles
2. player 2 (Germans) medium battles
3. player 3 (Dailami) large battles
etc.

All that is required now for players is to take note of their opponents preference when setting up the challenge. If your opponent agrees to large as indicated by preference than set it up as large otherwise as medium.

I think this could work and could be applied broadly over every division as long as players are willing to respect each others preferences without applying any stigma to those who prefer medium.
Hmm . . . very interesting. As I have said already today, I am loathe to make things any more complicated as a significant minority of players just will not take the time to read the instructions and Players Guide that I already provide. But I would be interested to trial this idea in just one section next season (probably Biblical as it is the smallest).

I do think it would mean that the default size for all battles in the FOG2DL would revert to medium 1200pt and that both players would have to opt for 1600pts at the start of the tournament to be eligible to play in larger battles. I don't think having default 1200pts for Classical and Late Antiquity plus the Themed Event and default 1600pts for Early Middle Ages and Biblical would be advisable as some players will get themselves in a pickle with it.

The only problem I can see with it at the moment is that players who prefer 1600pt armies will end up playing a mixture of 1200pt and 1600pt matches while those who prefer the default 1200pt will just play 1200pt matches. So it is a little bit more demanding for those who play both 1200 and 1600pts.

pantherboy
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pantherboy » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:15 pm

I think in the last Pike and Shot tournament I ran a few years back that I gave players the choice of size and maybe once in LOEG as an experiment. I don't remember any complications arising or any angst from players about switching between battle sizes. If anything the players that were advocating for larger got to play some battles at their preferred size versus opponents that were likeminded. As for medium size those players felt no change as they had no concerns. They don't even have to bother taking note of other player preferences and all the onus sits on the shoulders of those that prefer large sizes. If switching between sizes would be confusing for someone they can still opt to simply set their preference for medium to avoid any perceived stresses. In essence what I am saying is that those players that do not read tournament rules closely will simply play medium size as per usual. Only those actively engaged will likely pick large. The only real problem I foresee is a player not carefully reading tourney rules but wants to play large and then sets up all their matches as large regardless of their opponents preference.

As for trial running this idea in a single division I completely concur. Afterwards you could ask for feedback from those involved for their impressions and what complications that may of arisen to evaluate its viability.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by rs2excelsior » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:15 pm

I do very much like that idea (since it seems all large armies probably is going to fail). Seems about the most straightforward way of letting players tailor (to some degree) the size of battles they prefer without forcing folks to choose to cut out sections they’d like to play. If something along those lines gets trialed next season I will gladly be on board to test it out!

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by DanZanzibar » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:22 pm

As someone who voted no, I would support this idea and set my default to medium.

If the rules were to allow it, I would even PM some of my "large" opponents and suggest we could play our match at their preferred size. The occasional large match is fun but I wouldn't want to be fixed with it all season long.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by klayeckles » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:51 pm

i find the larger battles add more work, but fail to add more strategic thinking...you still only have two flanks, etc. larger battles offer more chance for tactical minutia but no more strategic benefits. so the result is a more ponderous effort that reduces the total number of battles one can process...thus limiting the variety and making it more difficult to participate in multiple periods. I am certain we will lose participation, as people that play in 2 or more brackets will find the turnarounds are more work, and slower overall--so folks will join fewer brackets.

the idea of allowing both to opt for a large battle would be fine.--and in fact who would ever know if people were doing it now??? :)

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by nyczar » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:00 pm

pantherboy wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:02 am
What you could do is make large battles optional where if both parties would like to use large armies than they are permitted to use said format for their match. If either player would prefer medium size than it automatically defaults to medium. To minimize administration when players sign up for a league with army preferences they would also be required to indicate whether they would like large/medium battles. It doesn't add significantly to administration and places the onus on players to identify which matches will be large as opposed to medium.

For example:

Sign me up for EMA.

1. Arab Conquest
2. French
3. German
4. Dailami

Battle size: Large

Once the administrator has allocated players to divisions with army selection they would post the divisions as such:

EMA Division A

1. player 1 (Arab Conquest) medium battles
2. player 2 (Germans) medium battles
3. player 3 (Dailami) large battles
etc.

All that is required now for players is to take note of their opponents preference when setting up the challenge. If your opponent agrees to large as indicated by preference than set it up as large otherwise as medium.

I think this could work and could be applied broadly over every division as long as players are willing to respect each others preferences without applying any stigma to those who prefer medium.
Great idea, i would try it out...I am a glutton for challenges that turn my head inside out.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pompeytheflatulent » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:31 pm

Going off on a tangent, how much whisky would it take to bribe stockwellpete into making the army selection process blind? Just let everyone submit their army lists via pm? I know it's going to be more work for pete hence the whisky bribe. Looking at Early Middle Ages, this section probably has the second largest selection of armies out of all of the divisions. But everybody's playing the same armies, and everybody's copying everybody else's army choices. I'm really tempted to Kushan my way back down to Division E where all of the weird and fun armies are.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by cromlechi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:42 pm

pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:31 pm
Going off on a tangent, how much whisky would it take to bribe stockwellpete into making the army selection process blind? Just let everyone submit their army lists via pm? Looking at Early Middle Ages, this section probably has the second largest selection of armies out of all of the divisions. But everybody's playing the same armies, and everybody's copying everybody else's army choices. I'm really tempted to Kushan my way back down to Division E where all of the weird and fun armies are.
I guess a lot of people must pick armies based on the published ratings as well. Being able to see what others have picked can help as well I guess as higher rated players are not likely to pick armies that have already been selected as they know they won't get them. Guess there would be pros and cons to it.

deeter
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by deeter » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:53 pm

Hi all. Wouldn't the choice of larger armies skew the match in that having so many points would exhaust many army lists and thus remove the need to make hard choices as to army composition?

Deeter

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by devoncop » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:35 pm

deeter wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:53 pm
Hi all. Wouldn't the choice of larger armies skew the match in that having so many points would exhaust many army lists and thus remove the need to make hard choices as to army composition?

Deeter

In fact those sort of one dimensional armies are very rarely picked as it is so I suspect it would make little difference.

As someone who is no fan of fighting such armies anyway if it was the case they were weeded out then that would be an added bonus :P

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:38 pm

pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:31 pm
Going off on a tangent, how much whisky would it take to bribe stockwellpete into making the army selection process blind? Just let everyone submit their army lists via pm? I know it's going to be more work for pete hence the whisky bribe. Looking at Early Middle Ages, this section probably has the second largest selection of armies out of all of the divisions. But everybody's playing the same armies, and everybody's copying everybody else's army choices. I'm really tempted to Kushan my way back down to Division E where all of the weird and fun armies are.
Sorry, this idea is completely out of the question. It would be a nightmare for me to deal with.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by deeter » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 pm

Actually, I was thinking about armies such as the Seleucids who wouldn't have to choose between their various toys when they have enough points to buy them all.

Deeter

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by GDod » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:07 pm

It just worries me that large armies would extend playing time, which may discourage players from entering more periods, or increase a dropout rate. Moreover, a large Arab conquest would be just a nightmare. :roll: Then again, it does works well in EMA...now I'm just confused :?

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by devoncop » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:41 am

deeter wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 pm
Actually, I was thinking about armies such as the Seleucids who wouldn't have to choose between their various toys when they have enough points to buy them all.

Deeter
Are the Seleucids actually winning in any Divisions ?

The record of the army in FoG2 is not exceptional by any means so a "powerhouse" is not likely.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by ulysisgrunt » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:26 am

Perhaps this will end up like boxing, with 4 different 'weight' classes...

pantherboy
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pantherboy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:31 am

You should note with scaling that when you have more points you also have more of each type that you can buy. You may buy all types on your list like the Seleucids but you will still encounter the issue of not having enough points if you begin maxing out on particular unit types.

As for blind selections then it is very understandable that it requires a moderator to put in a lot of extra work which is a rather unattractive proposition. In the old days of the League of Extraordinary Gentleman I publicly posted my army selection and then had everyone PM there choice but then I don't think I limited an army to a single player. To avoid repeat armies towards the end of my days as a coordinator I trialed selecting 10 or maybe 12 army lists for a season per category for players to select from ensuring a wide variety of lists. I then had players receive their preference in order of their ranking based on the last seasons performance with me always taking the final choice for division A.

Especially in the incipient days of LoEG I would select scenarios which players used and had to do as a mirror match which I found to be tremendous fun since it didn't matter if it was biased to one side or the other and let players enjoy playing a variety of armies though without selection of individual units.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:00 am

pantherboy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:31 am
... I trialed selecting 10 or maybe 12 army lists for a season per category for players to select from ensuring a wide variety of lists. I then had players receive their preference in order of their ranking based on the last seasons performance with me always taking the final choice for division A.
Very interesting approach! What was the response among the players? And how did you find the trial yourself?
pantherboy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:31 am
Especially in the incipient days of LoEG I would select scenarios which players used and had to do as a mirror match which I found to be tremendous fun since it didn't matter if it was biased to one side or the other and let players enjoy playing a variety of armies though without selection of individual units.
Another excellent idea! I think MikeC_81 is setting up something similar at this very moment.
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:23 am

pantherboy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:31 am
As for blind selections then it is very understandable that it requires a moderator to put in a lot of extra work which is a rather unattractive proposition.
Yes, this season we have 60 players in Classical Antiquity, Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages plus another 30 in Biblical. So that is 210 PM's from players straight away. Then you probably have to double that number of PM's for edits, particularly where players have put "armies to follow". So I would end up with 400+ PM's where the system can only hold 100 PM's in my Inbox. So it is a complete non-starter even if I was inclined to try it. Actually I think I would rather stick pins in my eyes!
In the old days of the League of Extraordinary Gentleman I publicly posted my army selection and then had everyone PM there choice but then I don't think I limited an army to a single player. To avoid repeat armies towards the end of my days as a coordinator I trialed selecting 10 or maybe 12 army lists for a season per category for players to select from ensuring a wide variety of lists. I then had players receive their preference in order of their ranking based on the last seasons performance with me always taking the final choice for division A.
That is a bit restrictive for my tastes. I prefer to let people choose and now, with the allies option available, there is plenty of scope to come up with interesting new combinations.
Especially in the incipient days of LoEG I would select scenarios which players used and had to do as a mirror match which I found to be tremendous fun since it didn't matter if it was biased to one side or the other and let players enjoy playing a variety of armies though without selection of individual units.
We have been doing this in the Themed Event for many years, going back to FOG1 times.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pantherboy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:31 am

Pete for scenarios I meant actual ones that come with FOG like the battle of Cannae so that the force composition and battlefield are identical for the mirror battle.

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