Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Moderator: Field of Glory 2 Tournaments Managers

Would you be in favour of moving to larger 1600pt armies in all sections of the FOG2 Digital League?

Poll ended at Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:04 pm

1. Yes
34
56%
2. No
27
44%
 
Total votes: 61

pantherboy
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pantherboy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:43 am

kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:00 am
pantherboy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:31 am
... I trialed selecting 10 or maybe 12 army lists for a season per category for players to select from ensuring a wide variety of lists. I then had players receive their preference in order of their ranking based on the last seasons performance with me always taking the final choice for division A.
Very interesting approach! What was the response among the players? And how did you find the trial yourself?
There were no criticisms amongst players but then I would run multiple formats so if a player wanted a more open selection there always was free selection groups. As for my experience I found it very challenging playing with last choice but rewarding from the point of view of forcing myself to learn how to play with a variety of lists.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:53 am

pantherboy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:31 am
Pete for scenarios I meant actual ones that come with FOG like the battle of Cannae so that the force composition and battlefield are identical for the mirror battle.
Yes, I have done that, for example in Season 5 with Pydna, Raphia and Phillipi. Because the official scenarios tend to be very large I have sometimes used my own ones (usually somewhere between 1200 and 1600pts) but they are still mirror matches as you describe. For example, I did this in Season 4 with my Frankish scenarios.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:33 am

Mirror matches across the board would have two benefits and one substantial drawback -

1) It would mean players didn't feel screwed by their army choice
2) It would encourage players to use more eccentric and fun army lists without fear of getting stomped across the board

With of course the drawback that it would take more time to play, so people would enter less sections. That sort of variety and encouragement of less 'gaming' of army choice would be worth entering fewer sections to me, unlike larger armies, but I suspect it's not a popular idea.
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deeter
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by deeter » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:48 pm

devoncop wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:41 am
deeter wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 pm
Actually, I was thinking about armies such as the Seleucids who wouldn't have to choose between their various toys when they have enough points to buy them all.

Deeter
Are the Seleucids actually winning in any Divisions ?

The record of the army in FoG2 is not exceptional by any means so a "powerhouse" is not likely.
Seleucids are just an example. Besides, now that I'm back that could change.

Deeter

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by deeter » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:51 pm

pantherboy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:31 am
You should note with scaling that when you have more points you also have more of each type that you can buy. You may buy all types on your list like the Seleucids but you will still encounter the issue of not having enough points if you begin maxing out on particular unit types.
I didn't know that. Thanks. I've only just gotten FOG II and haven't had much time with it.

Deeter

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Schweetness101 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:46 pm

I'd also like to see large battles for classical antiquity, because although medium size is fun they tend to feel more like large skirmishes than full battles. It looks like most people prefer a balance of sizes across eras though. Perhaps if classical antiquity was made large one of the others that are 1600 could be dropped back to 1200. Maybe just to mix things up.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by NikiforosFokas » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:36 pm

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:33 am
Mirror matches across the board would have two benefits and one substantial drawback -

1) It would mean players didn't feel screwed by their army choice
2) It would encourage players to use more eccentric and fun army lists without fear of getting stomped across the board

With of course the drawback that it would take more time to play, so people would enter less sections. That sort of variety and encouragement of less 'gaming' of army choice would be worth entering fewer sections to me, unlike larger armies, but I suspect it's not a popular idea.
I agree 100% with that. Maybe just for one division.
For Byzantium!!

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:32 am

NikiforosFokas wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:36 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:33 am
Mirror matches across the board would have two benefits and one substantial drawback -

1) It would mean players didn't feel screwed by their army choice
2) It would encourage players to use more eccentric and fun army lists without fear of getting stomped across the board

With of course the drawback that it would take more time to play, so people would enter less sections. That sort of variety and encouragement of less 'gaming' of army choice would be worth entering fewer sections to me, unlike larger armies, but I suspect it's not a popular idea.
I agree 100% with that. Maybe just for one division.
The basic league format of 10 players in a division is not going to change. That is one of my "red lines", I'm afraid. To have mirror matches in the league sections would involve altering the number of players in a division, probably to six players so that players were being asked to play a similar number of battles (10 instead of 9). This would completely fragment the section(s) it was introduced into and reduce the number of different opponents any player would meet during the course of a season. I am just not going to do this.

I have used mirror matches in the Themed Event for a few seasons now yet this is the least supported section of the tournament and I usually struggle to get 12 players. So I am not convinced that mirror matches are universally popular.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by SLancaster » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:41 am

I don’t like mirror matches. I prefer to play nine games against different opponents.

In a knockout tournament it might be different. Even then, I probably prefer just one game rather than two against every opponent.

SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:17 pm

Well I did say it probably wasn't a popular idea ;). The Themed Event doesn't let players choose their armies though, which could certainly be a factor. I would enjoy learning to play both with and against a specific army throughout a section. In any case, the point is moot, as it's clearly not going to happen.
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pompeytheflatulent » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:30 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:32 am
I have used mirror matches in the Themed Event for a few seasons now yet this is the least supported section of the tournament and I usually struggle to get 12 players. So I am not convinced that mirror matches are universally popular.
Well, the reason I stay away from the Themed Event is not because of mirror matches, but because I can't wrap my head around how Swiss style tournaments are supposed to work. :lol:

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pompeytheflatulent » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:32 pm

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:17 pm
In any case, the point is moot, as it's clearly not going to happen.
You should form your own digital league, with blackjack, and hookers.

devoncop
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by devoncop » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:55 pm

pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:30 pm
stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:32 am
I have used mirror matches in the Themed Event for a few seasons now yet this is the least supported section of the tournament and I usually struggle to get 12 players. So I am not convinced that mirror matches are universally popular.
Well, the reason I stay away from the Themed Event is not because of mirror matches, but because I can't wrap my head around how Swiss style tournaments are supposed to work. :lol:

I stay away because of the rigidity of the army selections. Mirror matches in themselves are actually an attraction for me at least.

DanZanzibar
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by DanZanzibar » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:40 pm

pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:32 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:17 pm
In any case, the point is moot, as it's clearly not going to happen.
You should form your own digital league, with blackjack, and hookers.
On second thought, forget the league.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Cunningcairn » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:59 pm

Schweetness101 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:46 pm
I'd also like to see large battles for classical antiquity, because although medium size is fun they tend to feel more like large skirmishes than full battles. It looks like most people prefer a balance of sizes across eras though. Perhaps if classical antiquity was made large one of the others that are 1600 could be dropped back to 1200. Maybe just to mix things up.
Yup I agree. With pike and warband armies the Classical section would feel better with more points. Probably the most logical section to go down in points would be the Biblical section as it has many cheap troop types.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:02 pm

In a way it's odd that Early Middle Ages has larger armies than Classical, when historically I imagine it would generally be the opposite based on what we know of army sizes.
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by harveylh » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:22 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:02 pm
In a way it's odd that Early Middle Ages has larger armies than Classical, when historically I imagine it would generally be the opposite based on what we know of army sizes.
Based on my interest in pregunpower armies and I am sure I have read a few hundred books plus numerous magazine articles over the years on these armies, Snugglebunnies is exactly right. I would propose just to be more historic, next season Classical has large armies while Early Middle Ages has medium. Plus it would be an interesting change.

Harvey

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Schweetness101 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:24 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:59 pm
Schweetness101 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:46 pm
I'd also like to see large battles for classical antiquity, because although medium size is fun they tend to feel more like large skirmishes than full battles. It looks like most people prefer a balance of sizes across eras though. Perhaps if classical antiquity was made large one of the others that are 1600 could be dropped back to 1200. Maybe just to mix things up.
Yup I agree. With pike and warband armies the Classical section would feel better with more points. Probably the most logical section to go down in points would be the Biblical section as it has many cheap troop types.
yes pike armies especially, with medium size it feels like you can't really afford a substantial pike line.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Schweetness101 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:26 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:02 pm
In a way it's odd that Early Middle Ages has larger armies than Classical, when historically I imagine it would generally be the opposite based on what we know of army sizes.
yeah this as well, larger classical armies would feel more historical than large early middle ages armies, but I do like EMA battles large as well. Maybe try:

Biblical: Medium
Classical: Large
Late Antiquity: Medium
Early Middle Ages: Large

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by SLancaster » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:44 am

I might be more in favour of leaving Classical at medium, putting Late Antiquity at large, and Biblical at medium and see how that goes. I think from an organiser's point of view it is not a great idea to keep changing around the points every season, though.

I also think people tend to forget the amount of time and energy that has to be put in to play the Digital League. You have to complete nine games just to finish one section. Some players play in almost all the sections and they love doing that. Other people can only invest x amount of time and energy. I only play in one section most seasons.

As one poster said, large battles do draw out the game and take more time. If it was a knockout tournament then medium or large battles wouldn't make that much difference.

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