The Discussion thread . . .

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stockwellpete
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:32 pm

Herode_2 wrote:Slightly OOT about the current tactical discussion (which I am carefully reading BTW :D ) but for the KO Tournament managers : I had to kill the process while playing my turn against Ludendorf. The game froze and nothing happened when I clicked on the "End turn" button. Not sure how notifications go after that sort of stuff and, more importantly, I don't know how to save the corrupted state of the game (since it was frozen...) in order to send it to the devs for further debug. Anyway, I guess the file is still operational now ; if any doubt remains, just let me know.
Herode_2 and Ludendorf, you have PM. :wink:

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by Barrold713 » Tue May 08, 2018 8:09 pm

OK...so Kingdom of Soissons and the Krappodokians...lessons learned.

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Tue May 08, 2018 8:29 pm

Barrold713 wrote:OK...so Kingdom of Soissons and the Krappodokians...lessons learned.
Libyans next for you! :lol:

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Tue May 08, 2018 10:52 pm

Barrold713 wrote:OK...so Kingdom of Soissons and the Krappodokians...lessons learned.
Soissons is a decent army. Not top tier but miles better than Kappadokians. They have a moderate but decent set of tools available for you to play with and you can very easily try to use a "go wide/fix and flank" strategy by bulking up on the stupendously cheap Limitaeni and Roman Cavalry. You can then stiffening them up or form an offensive arm with Legio Comatenesis, Auxlia Palatina or Vet Roman Cavalry and Noble Lancers depending on the opponent. Your skirmishing arm isn't the best but its definitely serviceable against most opponents. It will require some skill and knowledge to handle well but it isn't an awful army.

If you are having trouble picking up multiplayer success, then I highly advise that you start playing a lot of Republican Romans because they have a much simpler time of things. Simply have a reasonable deployment, identify the weaker elements of the enemy foot army and send your Veteran Legionaries in and slaughter the opposition. Just support their flanks and you will do ok. Study and pick up on how other players react to these situations you put them in and start incorporating them into your game and then you can start expanding your army selection.
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by Barrold713 » Wed May 09, 2018 1:48 am

Thanks Mike, genuinely appreciated. It definitely was not an awful force. I did win a practice game against a Scots/Brits force but lost against German foot tribe badly. The numbers and the the superior Auxlia Palatina were going to be key if the terrain was a lucky draw.
I only had the single KO match against IMC and his Seleucid army. I was guessing some elephants and cataphracts but he selected almost all pike and lances. I had the cavalry and the auxila on my left with the heavy foot center and right. I definitely had the numbers and won the left with a good force able to swing around. However the line just melted on contact with the pikes. I had no chance to fix and flank as nearly every charge disrupted or fragmented my dudes on impact.
It was still fun and IMC was a gracious and friendly opponent. So many great contacts playing this game and I am going to enjoy the next tournament and season 2 of the digital league regardless of my record. I do hope to improve of course.

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Re: Tournament diary and news

Post by stockwellpete » Mon May 28, 2018 7:34 am

There is just one second round match still to be completed now. The draw for the third round will take place on Thursday morning at 9am (BST).

It has been a very interesting tournament so far with quite a number of unexpected results, where players who had done very well in the first season of the FOG2DL were beaten by players who did not participate in it. In the first round GDod beat Sennercherib, oscarius beat shawkhan2, u5555 beat Breogan and Alkibijad beat Ulysisgrunt. Then, in the second round, Kabill has beaten devoncop and Nosy_Rat has triumphed over NikiforosFokas. So the "new" players (new to the competitions that I run, that is) have already had a very big impact on the tournament. There have been a few other surprises too with nyczar beating ianiow in the first round and MikeC_81 narrowly defeating one of the favourites, klayeckles, in the second round.

The second round was also noticeable for the demise of no less than six Roman armies, which means that only three of them still survive. It did look to me likely that the Romans would dominate the tournament but that is not the case now. The Hepthalites and Western Huns also have three armies through to the last sixteen, as do the Carthaginians, so I would say that it is wide open at the moment. :wink:

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Re: Tournament diary and news

Post by edb1815 » Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm

stockwellpete wrote:There is just one second round match still to be completed now. The draw for the third round will take place on Thursday morning at 9am (BST).

It has been a very interesting tournament so far with quite a number of unexpected results, where players who had done very well in the first season of the FOG2DL were beaten by players who did not participate in it. In the first round GDod beat Sennercherib, oscarius beat shawkhan2, u5555 beat Breogan and Alkibijad beat Ulysisgrunt. Then, in the second round, Kabill has beaten devoncop and Nosy_Rat has triumphed over NikiforosFokas. So the "new" players (new to the competitions that I run, that is) have already had a very big impact on the tournament. There have been a few other surprises too with nyczar beating ianiow in the first round and MikeC_81 narrowly defeating one of the favourites, klayeckles, in the second round.

The second round was also noticeable for the demise of no less than six Roman armies, which means that only three of them still survive. It did look to me likely that the Romans would dominate the tournament but that is not the case now. The Hepthalites and Western Huns also have three armies through to the last sixteen, as do the Carthaginians, so I would say that it is wide open at the moment. :wink:

Oh my Romans dropping like flies :shock: As one of the remaining Romans I am feeling the pressure to win for the glory of Rome. :|

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Re: Tournament diary and news

Post by Ludendorf » Mon May 28, 2018 4:04 pm

edb1815 wrote:

Oh my Romans dropping like flies :shock: As one of the remaining Romans I am feeling the pressure to win for the glory of Rome. :|
Well, either glory will be restored, the Carthaginians will score a victory from beyond the grave (bringing about a rather literal interpretation of the Punic Curse), or those horrible nomads will come and burn everything. Place your bets folks, will it be the Empire, the undead legions of Hannibal, or this century's hottest terror from the steppe?

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Re: Tournament diary and news

Post by MikeC_81 » Mon May 28, 2018 7:09 pm

KO tournaments are tough. Any given game can be won/lost based on a bad roll at a critical junction especially if the game is tight. Also, dodging bad matchups is a staple "tactic" in KO tournament.
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:46 am

So all the Huns and Hepthalites are knocked out now and we could just have Roman and pike armies in the quarter-finals.

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:15 am

Two wins for Carthage over Rome in the two quarter-final results posted so far.

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:02 am

All three Roman armies knocked out in the quarter-finals! :shock:

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by Ludendorf » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:27 am

Hannibal's undead legions will be celebrating in their camp tonight as they give thanks to Baal and eat the brains of their defeated Roman counterparts.

(What? They're already dead. What do you think we are, barbarian zombies who eat people alive?)

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Re: Winners post your result here . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:28 am

goddamn, all Carthaginians in the Top 4
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by bbogensc » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:08 am

A couple points,

(1) First, Carthage is not a pike army. The Carthage army is flexible and was chosen by the top players for its flexibility. So, skilled players can recruit a force that will not be swept off the map based on a mismatch in unit type, and then the game will then be decided mostly by player skill.

(2) Second, several of the players that were assigned to Tier A in league mentioned their total games played in FOGII is around 50. For my part, I've played about 150 FOG II matches. So, what we see is players who've played alot tend to win in the tournaments and so forth even over the Tier A players who don't play the game very much or as much.

(3) Third, I doubt the semi finalist players here were lucky in their matches. One of my opponents registered 5 fractures of my units in 1 turn, as illustration. So, when I play now against an opponent that I suspect will be extremely "lucky" for whatever reason on his or her turns, I simply do not offer game positions where the match will be decided solely on my opponent's turn.

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Re: Winners post your result here . . .

Post by Kabill » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:22 am

MikeC_81 wrote:goddamn, all Carthaginians in the Top 4
I feel a bit better about losing badly to a couple of matches against Ludendorf's Carthaginians in pre-tournament friendlies now!

I suspect, as bbogensc has suggested, flexibility is key. That's an obvious advantage for the Carthaginian player in a knock-out tournament as it means there are no inherently "bad" match-ups they can face. But, playing against Carthaginians, I also find that flexibility a problem because it's difficult to predict what the Carthaginian player will field and so difficult to know what the main threats might be that need countering. In turn, that creates an incentive to try and build an all-round army that can try and resist any possible Carthaginian lineup, but which lacks any particular strength of its own. Dunno if other people find this, but that's a key issue I've had playing against Carthaginians and why I find them very challenging to fight.
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:50 pm

Flexibility is definitely the defining feature of the Carthaginian lists. I am glad that I got it right with the Tier list placement when I initially ranked them in Tier A despite not having a Carthaginian army win any of the FoG2DL divisions in season 1 but I felt strongly they deserved to be there. Another big advantage is not only can they pick an army for the matchup, but they are also agile in terms of terrain generation.

The biggest issue I found both in the FoG2DL and this tournament is the need to account for the possibility of 3 elephants every time while Carthaginian players can opt for none.

In terms of player skill vs luck, all 4 finalists and most of the top 8 are known players (to me at least) and all obviously know what they are doing. It is next to impossible to luck your way this far but it is also entirely possible to get knocked out early to bad luck.

I find it strange you brought the FoG2DL divisions in to the mix? Just curious if that was the reason why withdrew from tournaments?
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by bbogensc » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:27 pm

Yes, MikeC, and you were also correct that the late Roman lists are Tier A. The Roman +-400AD lists and also Romano-British are each comparable, probably better, than the Carthage lists in my view. Note also, the Jewish lists are extremely problematic for Carthage without much archery and I scrambled to get out of my 1st round match up. However, Carthage dominates horse based armies when played properly, and I also thought I could win easily with Carthage against any archer armies by sheer numbers.

On league, I am busy right now with work and travel, but am also very discouraged that players (especially newer players) are able to re-load turns. I don't enjoy playing the game against players who are re-loading, its just not fun, even though as klayeckes pointed out there is a certain joy in beating a player that is obviously re-loading. There was a recent posting by Skirmish Lord where he explained that the re-load warning only occurs on extreme re-loading abuse (appears to be dozens and dozens of times), and then its just a warning with no practical effect. In the first season of league I properly reported a player that appeared to be re-loading, and was wrongly told this was "impossible" and Stockwellpete attempted to award the match to my opponent simply for pointing out that he appeared to be re-loading, as Stockwellpete then wrongly claimed this was impossible. I never received any sort of apology or explanation. It was only months later that Kabill demonstrated exactly how the reloading is done, and then we were again told the issue is under control, but its obviously not. In my experience, in addition to outlandish battle results, players that are re-loading often make head on or suicidal attacks that make no sense, so its blatantly obvious the person is re-loading and knows they are going to load a sequence until they get a 2 drop fracture, for example.

So, where I was placed in B and C, with players I've never heard of, and other players I've never heard of going directly into A, I just decided that was enough where I had beaten many of the A players. I am running the campaign which is more enjoyable and in a campaign its really impractical to try to re-load turns so its just a more viable set up. I don't think the league is designed well enough to run where players are able to re-load especially in the lower divisions.

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:15 pm

bbogensc wrote: On league, I am busy right now with work and travel, but am also very discouraged that players (especially newer players) are able to re-load turns. I don't enjoy playing the game against players who are re-loading, its just not fun, even though as klayeckes pointed out there is a certain joy in beating a player that is obviously re-loading. There was a recent posting by Skirmish Lord where he explained that the re-load warning only occurs on extreme re-loading abuse (appears to be dozens and dozens of times), and then its just a warning with no practical effect. In the first season of league I properly reported a player that appeared to be re-loading, and was wrongly told this was "impossible" and Stockwellpete attempted to award the match to my opponent simply for pointing out that he appeared to be re-loading, as Stockwellpete then wrongly claimed this was impossible. I never received any sort of apology or explanation. It was only months later that Kabill demonstrated exactly how the reloading is done, and then we were again told the issue is under control, but its obviously not. In my experience, in addition to outlandish battle results, players that are re-loading often make head on or suicidal attacks that make no sense, so its blatantly obvious the person is re-loading and knows they are going to load a sequence until they get a 2 drop fracture, for example.
And you will not be getting an apology either. I immediately referred your concerns to Richard, the game designer, as I have no technical expertise in this area. He then replied to you in detail, so to say you had no explanation then, or subsequently, is just not true. I also spent a lot of time liaising between Richard and the other player concerned, who strenuously denied your accusations of cheating, it must be said. You had only been in the tournament a week or so before you made these allegations. Once Richard had clarified the situation, I referred the match to the other two adjudicators and we unanimously awarded the match to your opponent. However, your opponent graciously waived the award and played the game to a successful (for him) finish. I do not actually believe there is much cheating going on in the FOG2DL, if any at all. Most players enter for enjoyment after all and they enjoy a fair contest, which is what they get 99% of the time.
So, where I was placed in B and C, with players I've never heard of, and other players I've never heard of going directly into A, I just decided that was enough where I had beaten many of the A players. I am running the campaign which is more enjoyable and in a campaign its really impractical to try to re-load turns so its just a more viable set up. I don't think the league is designed well enough to run where players are able to re-load especially in the lower divisions.
You started off in Season 1 in Division E as a reserve and you finished second. So it was entirely reasonable of me to put you in Divisions B and C in Season 2 taking into account some other results of yours that I had seen. The player who finished above you in Division E in Season 1 was not put in Division A either this season, even though I am sure that he would do quite well there. There was only one player put directly into an A Division this season (he was given a B Division as well) and he has achieved a good set of results so far, which shows that I was not too far off with my assessment of his abilities.

Also, I am puzzled why you think it is impractical to "re-load" turns in a campaign when you seem to think the practice is widespread in the FOG2DL. And I have no idea why you think players in the lower divisions are more likely to be cheating than the top players.

It sounds to me like you have done as much as you possibly can to disrupt the FOG2DL this time, by entering all 5 sections and then withdrawing a couple of days after the start, even though you had started playing some matches. It is not up to me alone to decide who plays in the FOG2DL in future, as there are two other adjudicators whose views are also taken into account. But you have definitely lost my vote as far as the FOG2DL is concerned.

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:09 am

bbogensc wrote:Yes, MikeC, and you were also correct that the late Roman lists are Tier A. The Roman +-400AD lists and also Romano-British are each comparable, probably better, than the Carthage lists in my view. Note also, the Jewish lists are extremely problematic for Carthage without much archery and I scrambled to get out of my 1st round match up. However, Carthage dominates horse based armies when played properly, and I also thought I could win easily with Carthage against any archer armies by sheer numbers.
I am unsure about the late Roman lists. One of their biggest flaws is that they don't have a core of offensive spear unit. Not having the ability to get spanish scutarri for Impact Foot capability in medium terrain also seems like a big drawback compared to Carthage. I am going to need to see better results from them before I move them into Tier A.
bbogensc wrote:On league, I am busy right now with work and travel, but am also very discouraged that players (especially newer players) are able to re-load turns. I don't enjoy playing the game against players who are re-loading, its just not fun, even though as klayeckes pointed out there is a certain joy in beating a player that is obviously re-loading. There was a recent posting by Skirmish Lord where he explained that the re-load warning only occurs on extreme re-loading abuse (appears to be dozens and dozens of times), and then its just a warning with no practical effect. In the first season of league I properly reported a player that appeared to be re-loading, and was wrongly told this was "impossible" and Stockwellpete attempted to award the match to my opponent simply for pointing out that he appeared to be re-loading, as Stockwellpete then wrongly claimed this was impossible. I never received any sort of apology or explanation. It was only months later that Kabill demonstrated exactly how the reloading is done, and then we were again told the issue is under control, but its obviously not. In my experience, in addition to outlandish battle results, players that are re-loading often make head on or suicidal attacks that make no sense, so its blatantly obvious the person is re-loading and knows they are going to load a sequence until they get a 2 drop fracture, for example.

So, where I was placed in B and C, with players I've never heard of, and other players I've never heard of going directly into A, I just decided that was enough where I had beaten many of the A players. I am running the campaign which is more enjoyable and in a campaign its really impractical to try to re-load turns so its just a more viable set up. I don't think the league is designed well enough to run where players are able to re-load especially in the lower divisions.
I understand your concerns about cheating but so far in 2 FoG2DL seasons, the KO tournament and the 3 official tournaments I have participated in, I have not really felt that I was ever cheated. Is it possible that someone cheated on me? Sure. Ludendorf had a couple of really clutch attacks against bad odds on me that fragmented units or turned them around when they were about to blow open a section of line with a flanking attack. It is possible he cheated but when I step back and examine my run of luck as a whole throughout the game and throughout tournaments, crazy things have happened for both me and my opponent. Ex. If Ludendorf really wanted to cheat me, wouldn't he have simply picked a better spot and cheated before it got to the point where he would have to make a Hail Mary charge with a LH hoping it would stick and turn my flanking unit around? I am sure Klayeckles didn't feel great about my fragmented cavalry beating up his full strength cavalry, causing a double drop in morale and then breaking the same turn when his LH auto broke beside it. I just don't feel that cheating is at all prevalent and even it if is, it isn't stopping me from posting decent results (unless you think I too am part of the pack of cheaters that may or may not exist).

In any case, I respect your decision, it was just strange to see you pull out of all 5 divisions after the start of the League and it cause some disorder along with other people pulling out alongside you. For what its worth, I have never had a problem with Pete in our interactions and I have been in his tournaments or played beside him since day 1 this game launched. In any case, good luck with your campaign, I would have joined but as I said earlier, I am not really into the big metagame stuff.
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