Slitherine

Been learning the game and some issues in game play came up...

1. Shipyards. There doesn't seem to be any way to attack opponents' (while at war with them) shipyards. A message box comes up stating 'tile is occupied' and the shipyard cannot be touched. It also doesn't allow passage of friendly ship units - so shipyards can effectively block narrow straits.

2. Blacksmith. This improvement consumes WAY TO MUCH coal. The improvement kicks up coal production by about 0.66 if the mine is within the radius of the blacksmith and is connected by a dirt road - but with a consumption of 2 units of coal per turn, the player is quickly headed into deficit territory.

Assuming (standard game play), that 4 mines are within the range of a blacksmith (early game), the production bonus for the blacksmith would be 4 mines x 0.66 production boost per mine (three tile range plus connect by dirt road) = 8/3 rds total resource bonus production... all for a blacksmith maintenance expense of 3 resource (2 coal 1 iron) per turn. The blacksmith improvement as currently implemented is self-defeating. I think a fix would be to reduce the per turn expense of a blacksmith down to 0.5 coal, 0.5 iron and maybe 0.25 gold (total maintenance expense per blacksmith improvement).

3. Upgrading units. Couldn't upgrade a 'boat' while in a shipyard that already had the galley specialization. No option presented itself. The boat began the turn in the shipyard (full movement allowance present), and I couldn't find ANY way to get an upgrade option present. There were plenty of resources present (gold, wood, iron, etc.) but no way to upgrade a boat to a galley in a shipyard.

This is about the only issues I've come up with after about 20 hours of game play - so I'm really impressed.

I do have questions about the city tile coverage:

1. Is all food production put into a common pool and deductions taken from that pool 'empire wide' - or is each city measured separately? It appears it is all going into a common pool, since I had cities in locations that cannot support themselves with food.

2. Do cities continue to grow (in population) even when their 'city radius' foot print overlaps with other cities? It appears that the issue for players is merely to have their cities cover all the territory they control (so resources can be moved to the pools and not be left 'uncollected').

Thanks!!

Hi Cassini,
welcome to Aggresors forum:)

I will try to answer all your questions:)

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:24 amShipyards. There doesn't seem to be any way to attack opponents' (while at war with them) shipyards.

Shipyards cannot be attacked. The way you capture them is by capturing tiles (to which the shipyard is attached to) around. It is also something what was not usual in ancient history to attack shipyards.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:24 amIt also doesn't allow passage of friendly ship units - so shipyards can effectively block narrow straits.

Yes that is the current implementation. I agree that it has its drawbacks but making the tile "passable" would not only look weird but also lead to confusion.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:24 amBlacksmith. This improvement consumes WAY TO MUCH coal.

The production and consumption was tested many months during alpha and beta test and this is the consumption tweaked to not have too many blacksmiths yet some to be profitable. Blacksmiths should definitely be built carefully. It might not be worth to build a blacksmith for every single mine. Even on higher difficulty levels (where consumption is lower) it is beneficial to build blackmiths.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:24 amUpgrading units. Couldn't upgrade a 'boat' while in a shipyard that already had the galley specialization.

Boats can be upgraded to Triremes only.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:24 amIs all food production put into a common pool and deductions taken from that pool 'empire wide' - or is each city measured separately? It appears it is all going into a common pool, since I had cities in locations that cannot support themselves with food.

It is all going to the common pool, just be careful to not get your cities sieged, in that case the common pool cannot be used and the city starves.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:24 amDo cities continue to grow (in population) even when their 'city radius' foot print overlaps with other cities? It appears that the issue for players is merely to have their cities cover all the territory they control (so resources can be moved to the pools and not be left 'uncollected').

Cities grow despite some tiles might be already harvested by other cities. There is similar discussions here, I hope it will answer the question.

Have fun Cassini:)

Thanks for the quick reply.

I did check the difference the presence of blacksmiths made for mines, and due to the high consumption of coal (and the low boost to coal production), a single blacksmith will easily consume most of the production (works out to about 75%) of a single coal mine (after the production boosts available early game - a boosted coal mine will produce 2.66 total coal while the smith consumes 2 coal in maintenance). This simply makes blacksmiths a 'dead end' (players cannot support a single blacksmith per coal mine, due to the HIGH maintenance. The maintenance requirements of a blacksmith needs to be adjusted....

Not being able to upgrade boats to galleys.... seems like a flaw to me.

Another issue related to ships - landing friendly units into city tiles.

As it stands, the 'penalty' for unloading units is FULLY ENFORCED if a unit is unloading into a city tile. This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to unload units into FRIENDLY coastal city tiles which are located on hills and forests (the unload cost is too high due to the terrain in the tile hex). This mechanism needs to be modified so that when unloading into a FRIENDLY city tile, the costs in movement points is always ONE - enabling units to be unloaded into all friendly city tiles. I couldn't reinforce a friendly city by this quirk of the game - the city was located on a forest tile, and the unload cost was too high.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:10 pma single blacksmith will easily consume most of the production (works out to about 75%) of a single coal mine

This is exactly the point of blacksmith. It consumes most of the coal which is multiplied but on the other hand multiplies all other resources around.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:10 pmNot being able to upgrade boats to galleys.... seems like a flaw to me.

The game currently has linear "upgrading" system, which means it is possible to upgrade unit to only one particular type.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:10 pmAnother issue related to ships - landing friendly units into city tiles.

I partially agree with you, but imagine a city on hill (like a cliff). Units would not able unload directly to the city tile but rather disembark on easily accessible terrain and march to that city.

I'm going off page 109 of the manual (in addition to recollections of when I tried to use a blacksmith improvement in a game a couple of days ago).

Let's assume there are gold, iron, coal and stone quarry (mines) all within the 3 hex range of a single blacksmith. Let's also assume that each of these mines is connected to the blacksmith with a dirt road. Each of these 4 mines would experience a net increase in output of 0.66 units by virtue of the blacksmith. HOWEVER... the maintenance of the blacksmith improvement requires 2 coal and 1 iron each turn.

So the 'net' would be as follows (after addition of a blacksmith - excluding bonuses from city connections, which is independent from the blacksmith improvement):

Coal: +0.66 - 2.0 maintenance = Negative 1.33
Iron +0.66 - 1.0 maintenance = Negative 0.33
Stone +0.66 - (nil) = Positive 0.66
Gold +0.66 - (nil) = Positive 0.66

So as 'net' resources, it is a slight LOSS... a significant amount of coal and a minor amount of iron is being lost for the gain of some stone (big deal), and some gold each turn. And this is assuming there are four mines within range of the blacksmith. If there are fewer than four mines within range - it gets even WORSE.

As currently presented, the blacksmith 'improvement' only serves to place the owner into a deficit situation regarding coal (cities also consume coal), for a minor jump in production of gold. It (the blacksmith improvement) is a 'white elephant', doing more harm to the owner than good.

If there isn't any plan to remedy this situation, I'd like to know if there would be a way to manually edit the data file for the blacksmith - so I could adjust the maintenance to what I posted earlier (0.5 coal, 0.5 iron, 0.25 gold per turn). Even this 'fix' would only make the blacksmith 'improvement' marginally useful (creating a slight bump in coal, iron and gold production - ONLY if in range of at least 4 mines). I'm thinking that it would really need to be 0.25 coal, 0.25 iron and 0.25 gold, to make the blacksmith improvement cost effective (a slight bump in resource availability with just two mines affected and a further bump in effectiveness with more mines within range).

Landing units into friendly cities....

This is a MAJOR PROBLEM. If a city is on a forest or hill tile, it is IMPOSSIBLE to currently land the 2 movement factor units directly into the city tile (one cannot reinforce an ESTABLISHED, friendly city). The 'routine' needs to be all units unloading into a friendly city tile expending only ONE movement point regardless of the terrain the city is located within (or make it expending one half of listed movement points - to better balance infantry and cavalry 'timing' issues, preventing cavalry from being minimally impacted by just a one movement point unload cost). In this case, an 'amphibious landing' ISN'T taking place, but rather unloading at established (for the ancient era) pier or dock.

The thing is that you mix up the mine/quarry size and production. Iron mine of size 1 doesnt produce 1 iron per turn. Please try the map item type window (right click on the 3D model in the unit menu) and move the slider to see how size affects the production.
Also the government changes the production.

Moreover, coal is meant to be used primarily in blackmiths. Number of coal mines should not be equal to number of blacksmiths. Number of coal mines should be higher than number of blacksmiths.

Cassini wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:08 pm I'm going off page 109 of the manual (in addition to recollections of when I tried to use a blacksmith improvement in a game a couple of days ago).

<snip>

Hi, Cassini,

The table you're referring to is incorrect, and has been fixed for the next version of the manual (TBA). Here is the data from new one:

CONNECTION.................................................................INCREASE
Outside 3-tile range around a city or blacksmith.........................1.0
Within 3-tile range around city..............................................1.3
Within 3-tile range around city connected by dirt road.................1.6
Within 3-tile range around city connected by paved road..............1.9
Within 3-tile range around blacksmith.....................................2.2
Within 3-tile range around blacksmith connected by dirt road........2.6
Within 3-tile range around blacksmith connected by paved road.....3.0

Hope that helps!


JRR

uncarejf is correct, the increase is per 0.3 but it doesnt really change what Cassini is refering to because it would be even worse. The point is that this is an increase of mine/quarry size and not production of resources.