mid-republican roman list opinions

[OldenTired]

so what's wrong with this list

1x fort camp
3x TC
4x 4 HF Sup, Arm, Drilled, IF/Sw
2x 2 HF Elite, Arm, Drilled OS
2x 4 LF Av, Unprot, Drilled, Jav/LS
2x 4 HF, Poor, Prot, Drilled IF/Sw
1x 2 HF Poor, Prot, Drilled OS
1x 4 LF Poor, Unprot, Drilled, Jav/LS
1x 4 LF Sup, Unprot, Drilled Bow (Cretans)
1x 4 LH Av, Unprot, Undrill Jav/LS (Numidians)
1x 4 MF Sup, Arm, Drilled, LS/Sw (Allied Italians)
1x 8 MF Av, Prot, Drilled, LS/Sw (Allied Italians)

1x Ally TC (Numidian)
3x 4 LH Av, Unprot, Undrill Jav/LS
1x 4 LF Av, Unprot, Drilled, Jav/LS

20 BG, 798 Points.

[ravenflight]

well, the obvious answer... you've wasted 2 points!

[LambertSimnel]

The Fortified camp is mandatory for MRR. Also, what's the reason behind the Poor legion. I don't think I've seen them on anyone else's list. Are they just there as a cheap way to up the BG count?

[OldenTired]

The Fortified camp is mandatory for MRR. Also, what's the reason behind the Poor legion. I don't think I've seen them on anyone else's list. Are they just there as a cheap way to up the BG count?

i edited the post and added the fort camp.

played with this army today, and the poor legions butchered two BG of welsh.

meanwhile the superior legions went down in a screaming heap.

being poor only means re-rolling 6s. they still break on two elements lost, just like averages. and they have cheap rear-support +1CT!

[Blathergut]

I've used poor Roman heavies and enjoyed running them. Like just about anything else, they can have their glory days and their not-so-glory days. But they are fun to run. They do well if they hit barbarian MF sword types. And they do get the BG count up!

[Polkovnik]

It would be very vulnerable to a Cataphract & Horse archer army. Horse archers take out your LH, Cats take out your legions - especially the poor ones, who will go down very quickly.
In fact, the poor legion would be a target for a lot of armies - Armoured cavalry, spearmen, other Romans.

It may have a lot of BGs but 9 are skirmishers. It will have less, and smaller, BGs of fighting troops than a lot of opponents.

[Polkovnik]

I've used poor Roman heavies and enjoyed running them. Like just about anything else, they can have their glory days and their not-so-glory days. But they are fun to run. They do well if they hit barbarian MF sword types. And they do get the BG count up!

Are you thinking of the poor legionaries in later lists, which are armoured, These are only protected, so get no POA benefit in melee against barbarian HF or MF.

[david53]

It would be very vulnerable to a Cataphract & Horse archer army. Horse archers take out your LH, Cats take out your legions - especially the poor ones, who will go down very quickly.
In fact, the poor legion would be a target for a lot of armies - Armoured cavalry, spearmen, other Romans.

It may have a lot of BGs but 9 are skirmishers. It will have less, and smaller, BGs of fighting troops than a lot of opponents.

I'm with you on this, as Poor can only give rear support to poor troops you'd have to have some of them in the front rank. Being Poor and protected I would charge my Armoured Cavrlry at them all the time.

I use poor LF in my armies but not any troops that I'd want to fight in the front rank.

[Blathergut]

I've used poor Roman heavies and enjoyed running them. Like just about anything else, they can have their glory days and their not-so-glory days. But they are fun to run. They do well if they hit barbarian MF sword types. And they do get the BG count up!

Are you thinking of the poor legionaries in later lists, which are armoured, These are only protected, so get no POA benefit in melee against barbarian HF or MF.

I missed that they were protected. But I'd still run them sometimes. Makes for an interesting game. They'd be the type of stuff the enemy couldn't completely ignore, and if they send cavalry types against them, that's a lot of points compared to the cheapies. I have always liked wild variations in troops...makes it interesting and uncertain.

[OldenTired]

I missed that they were protected. But I'd still run them sometimes. Makes for an interesting game. They'd be the type of stuff the enemy couldn't completely ignore, and if they send cavalry types against them, that's a lot of points compared to the cheapies. I have always liked wild variations in troops...makes it interesting and uncertain.

they're not so bad against some sorts of foot too. they're hardly the killers in the army, but if they're put against something like the other players' crap foot BGs then... you *still* might lose.

[deadtorius]

I run Seluids and have used poor Militia offensive spears on several occasions. They have held their own and in some cases have been the heroes of the day. I have faced off against Blatherguts poor legions, and yes they did become primary targets and for some reason did not hold out as long as my spears. It comes down to how well the dice roll for you, similar to the whole elephant thing. If the dice roll well they are killing machines, dice roll against you and they are dead meat on the battle field. Nothing wrong with using them and if they hold up 2 or 3 times their points in enemy troops so much the better for your superior and elite troops.

[OldenTired]

I run Seluids and have used poor Militia offensive spears on several occasions. They have held their own and in some cases have been the heroes of the day. I have faced off against Blatherguts poor legions, and yes they did become primary targets and for some reason did not hold out as long as my spears. It comes down to how well the dice roll for you, similar to the whole elephant thing. If the dice roll well they are killing machines, dice roll against you and they are dead meat on the battle field. Nothing wrong with using them and if they hold up 2 or 3 times their points in enemy troops so much the better for your superior and elite troops.

in fact, that's an outright historical tactic!

pity you can't really replicate it well in a competitive ruleset...

[danikine74]

All i can say is that is big, lots of BGs. Here we are not using such big poor quality armies. But it seems that there in GB those armies rules! I use some poor LF and i like them, but i know they will flee in face of other LF.
I use the 8 bow LF BG but not 4.
I use also a 2 elements BG, but these are the qapuqulu, Cv armored superior, bow sw...

I think that once in front of you, my first impulse will be... charge!!!!!! as some unexperienced players, but i think that just shooting i will have lots of posibilities, and even in Cc, i fear to be charged frm the flank, but if weel don and outmaneuvring you it can be done.

I dont know how a game like this will be. But 20 BG seems a huge army to beat!!!

[Polkovnik]

Nothing wrong with using them and if they hold up 2 or 3 times their points in enemy troops so much the better for your superior and elite troops.

But remember a dead BG is 2 attrition points whatever quality. If you've got poor HF I'll quite happily put expensive cavalry or knights against them. 2 quick attrition points per BG (maybe more if they're supported by other poor troops), then my cav turns on the flank of the rest of your army.

Poor LH or LF can be useful at tying up expensive enemy BGs, because they take them out of the game for a long time and hopefully don't die at the end (although they may flee off table). Poor HF* and MF will just die quickly (unless on a hill, or in terrain), so are not good troops in a battle line.

* with the exception of poor pike which are IMO useful troops because they are normally POA + against everything, and maybe poor spears vs cavalry.

[OldenTired]

the assumption you're making is that someone is foolish enough to put three BG of poor troops in the line.

[Blathergut]

Nothing wrong with using them and if they hold up 2 or 3 times their points in enemy troops so much the better for your superior and elite troops.

But remember a dead BG is 2 attrition points whatever quality. If you've got poor HF I'll quite happily put expensive cavalry or knights against them. 2 quick attrition points per BG (maybe more if they're supported by other poor troops), then my cav turns on the flank of the rest of your army.

Poor LH or LF can be useful at tying up expensive enemy BGs, because they take them out of the game for a long time and hopefully don't die at the end (although they may flee off table). Poor HF* and MF will just die quickly (unless on a hill, or in terrain), so are not good troops in a battle line.

* with the exception of poor pike which are IMO useful troops because they are normally POA + against everything, and maybe poor spears vs cavalry.

>you'd have to get at the poors...they wouldn't exactly be hurled out ahead of everyone else
>supposedly something a bit more "meaty" is elsewhere causing you some concern!

[deadtorius]

Blathergut hates my poor light slings, 2 points a piece and they run just as fast as regular slings
I use poor light horse and slingers in all my armies. I have recently switched from MF bow to light foot bow but would rather keep them as average since I tend to have to shoot armoured troops and that makes my rolls 5 or 6 so I need those 6's.

Its not as easy as one thinks to just throw it all at the poor slobs sitting back there waiting to see what happens when there are lots of superior troops about getting in your way and causing you to react to them. As for a 20 battle group army, I faced off against one of those once, 18 battle groups of spanish. It takes forever to try and kill enough of them and your army break points keep growing, its all about the numbers. Not to mention that many battle groups will wear you down mentally too. Thats a lot of fighting and a lot of die rolls, takes 2 -3 turns to break them and if they luck out on die rolls it just takes longer.

[OldenTired]

you'd have to get at the poors...they wouldn't exactly be hurled out ahead of everyone else
>supposedly something a bit more "meaty" is elsewhere causing you some concern!

such as the 4 BG of superior armoured legions.

and getting to the poors has to be conducted past a wall of skirmishers intended to slow you.