Xystophoroi or Cataphracts

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ravenflight
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Xystophoroi or Cataphracts

Post by ravenflight » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:09 am

Hi All,

I'm designing the ultimate killer army. It's going to be awesome. Nothing will be able to stand before it.

A part of that army has a combination of Lancers with Elephants in support like this:

:shock: :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock:
:shock: :shock: :shock: :?: :?: :shock: :shock: :shock:

:shock: = Lancers
:lol: = elephants (the mouth moving is supposed to be the noise made by elephants when they are ripping apart the enemy
:?: = spacer (nothing there).

I'm thinking Xystophoroi or Cataphracts:

So, considering all comers, what is the best thing?

I'm hedging towards Cataphracts for a couple of reasons:

1 - I already own Catahpract models.
2 - I think the 3 points is worth it for the extra armour
3 - Cats move at the same speed as Elephants so you're not sacrificing mobility.
4 - I like the Horse Archer combinations that you can get with the Graeko-Bactrians which would be needed for this number of Cats.


however, if I go with Xystophoroi I can almost afford another 8 block of Phalangites.

Any thoughts?

mbsparta
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Post by mbsparta » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:47 am

Don't the elephants disorder some of the cataphracts or Xystophoroi?

Mike B

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Post by philqw78 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:59 am

Yes, the nellies disorder anything in 1 base width. Which then makes no difference as disorder is a lose of 1 dice per 3 bases disordered..

Also, why take any pike with the Bactrians? 1 Block is a liability, 2 is not enough and takes points from the lancers. Take the all mounted version. 2 blocks of 4 cats around 1 of 2 nellies, if thats what you want, the remainder cav lancers.. I would just max the cav lancers personally with maybe 1 or 2 BG of Cats. A very good army at 800pts. Starts to go downhill above that though.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Post by pcelella » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:51 am

philqw78 wrote:Yes, the nellies disorder anything in 1 base width. Which then makes no difference as disorder is a lose of 1 dice per 3 bases disordered...
And if I recall correctly, the elephants and the cavalry/cataphracts cannot function together as a Battle Line.

Peter C

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Post by batesmotel » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:16 pm

pcelella wrote:
philqw78 wrote:Yes, the nellies disorder anything in 1 base width. Which then makes no difference as disorder is a lose of 1 dice per 3 bases disordered...
And if I recall correctly, the elephants and the cavalry/cataphracts cannot function together as a Battle Line.

Peter C
All I can find in the rules is an exception for elephants (which count as mounted) that allows them to be in battle lines with foot but no prohibition on them being in a battle line with other mounted. I think this may have ben rules incorrectly at the tournament at the Hobby Bunker.

Chris

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Post by Ghaznavid » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:31 pm

Elephants can be in a BL with Mounted. The problem that does occur is: If you have El and other Mtd fighting foot that managed to remain steady. Then the mtd. will break off, leaving the El alone and overlapped; usually to explode before you can charge in your mtd. again (at least mine seem to almost always explode if this happens). Pairing El with infantry seems a much saver option.
Karsten


~ We are not surrounded, we are merely in a target rich environment. ~

pcelella
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Post by pcelella » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:37 pm

batesmotel wrote: All I can find in the rules is an exception for elephants (which count as mounted) that allows them to be in battle lines with foot but no prohibition on them being in a battle line with other mounted. I think this may have ben rules incorrectly at the tournament at the Hobby Bunker.

Chris
Wow! Chris - looks like you are correct. I must have been confusing FoG with past rulesets. It may not make tactical sense, but it does look like that elephants and cavalry can be mixed in a Battle Line.

Peter C

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Post by batesmotel » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:39 pm

Ghaznavid wrote:Elephants can be in a BL with Mounted. The problem that does occur is: If you have El and other Mtd fighting foot that managed to remain steady. Then the mtd. will break off, leaving the El alone and overlapped; usually to explode before you can charge in your mtd. again (at least mine seem to almost always explode if this happens). Pairing El with infantry seems a much saver option.
I would primarily see pairing mounted and elephants in a battle line as useful for fighting other mounted, not against foot. But I'm not sure what the original poster had in mind for the original question. For my last Later Seleucid list for a battle aginst MRR, I deicded another BG of 8 avg pikes was more useful than a BG of elephants and slightly cheaper as well (48 vs 50 points). I also used 2 BG of Agema and 2 of Companoins, so my army wasn't only counting on the pikes to win.

Chris

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Re: Xystophoroi or Cataphracts

Post by sergiomonteleone » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:01 pm

ravenflight wrote:Hi All,

I'm designing the ultimate killer army. It's going to be awesome. Nothing will be able to stand before it.

A part of that army has a combination of Lancers with Elephants in support like this:

:shock: :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock:
:shock: :shock: :shock: :?: :?: :shock: :shock: :shock:

:shock: = Lancers
:lol: = elephants (the mouth moving is supposed to be the noise made by elephants when they are ripping apart the enemy
:?: = spacer (nothing there).

I'm thinking Xystophoroi or Cataphracts:

So, considering all comers, what is the best thing?

I'm hedging towards Cataphracts for a couple of reasons:

1 - I already own Catahpract models.
2 - I think the 3 points is worth it for the extra armour
3 - Cats move at the same speed as Elephants so you're not sacrificing mobility.
4 - I like the Horse Archer combinations that you can get with the Graeko-Bactrians which would be needed for this number of Cats.


however, if I go with Xystophoroi I can almost afford another 8 block of Phalangites.

Any thoughts?
I played a lot with Greco-Bactrian using only mounted troops, in particularly DRILLED Cats (in my opinion if you have to use pikemen Later Seleucid are better).

I agree: Dumbos make disorder to Cats.
It’s better using Saka Ally.
In my opinion Cats are a little bit slow compared to Cav.

The advantages of Cats are in melee against Cav and some kinds of Hf, for example romans. But if you can manoeuvre in a good way with LH (I’m using 7-8 BG’S) I guess Cav are better, cost less than Cats, same POA in impact but more quick.

Sergio

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Post by willb » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:25 am

philqw78 wrote:Yes, the nellies disorder anything in 1 base width. Which then makes no difference as disorder is a lose of 1 dice per 3 bases disordered...
Actually it is the number of dice not the number of bases. However, since only two dice are affected in impact and melee there are no dice lost.

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Post by Moro » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:55 pm

what about AVERAGE cats? (a oddness of the graeco-bactrian list)...
You could save many points in order to buy some more cats...

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Post by babyshark » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:39 pm

Moro wrote:what about AVERAGE cats? (a oddness of the graeco-bactrian list)...
You could save many points in order to buy some more cats...
I am not a fan, for the most part. The Cats are doing the heavy lifting in this army; for best relults they should be superior. IMHO, of course. Your mileage may vary.

Marc

ravenflight
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Post by ravenflight » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:52 am

Ghaznavid wrote:If you have El and other Mtd fighting foot that managed to remain steady. Then the mtd. will break off, leaving the El alone and overlapped
Ghaz, you failed to read my post properly. I said I'm designing an army that NOTHING WILL BE ABLE TO STAND BEFORE! The cavalry bouncing may be a problem for you but nothing will stand before my boys!!! :twisted:

ravenflight
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Post by ravenflight » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:08 am

batesmotel wrote:I would primarily see pairing mounted and elephants in a battle line as useful for fighting other mounted, not against foot. But I'm not sure what the original poster had in mind for the original question. For my last Later Seleucid list for a battle aginst MRR, I deicded another BG of 8 avg pikes was more useful than a BG of elephants and slightly cheaper as well (48 vs 50 points). I also used 2 BG of Agema and 2 of Companoins, so my army wasn't only counting on the pikes to win.
Chris
The original poster had in mind that Cataphracts generally don't do well against Knights, but they will if they are paired with Elephants :)

Who knows, it might be a big flop, and if it is I'll do the 'with pike' options. Just playing around at the moment.

ravenflight
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Post by ravenflight » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:09 am

This post has been deleted because it doesn't make any sense.
Last edited by ravenflight on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

ravenflight
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Post by ravenflight » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:11 am

Moro wrote:what about AVERAGE cats? (a oddness of the graeco-bactrian list)...
You could save many points in order to buy some more cats...
Hmm, have to hash some numbers... but that's a good point as they will be almost as good as Superior when fighting Knights - the majority of which will be done by the Elephants!

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Post by stenic » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:25 am

ravenflight wrote:
batesmotel wrote:I would primarily see pairing mounted and elephants in a battle line as useful for fighting other mounted, not against foot. But I'm not sure what the original poster had in mind for the original question. For my last Later Seleucid list for a battle aginst MRR, I deicded another BG of 8 avg pikes was more useful than a BG of elephants and slightly cheaper as well (48 vs 50 points). I also used 2 BG of Agema and 2 of Companoins, so my army wasn't only counting on the pikes to win.
Chris
The original poster had in mind that Cataphracts generally don't do well against Knights, but they will if they are paired with Elephants :)

Who knows, it might be a big flop, and if it is I'll do the 'with pike' options. Just playing around at the moment.
Cats paired with elephants do work very well against knights.

Steve P

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