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New Kingdom Egyptian tips

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:06 pm
by footslogger
One of our locals has NKE lead from DBM days. It is chariot heavy. He seems to be a bit frustrated with it. I'm at a lack for suggestions about what to do. Clearly needs more foot. But I'm also not sure what to recommend about what to do with the light chariots.

This is in N. America in 25mm so we play on 8x6 (at my house - 8x5 in tournaments) with 40mm MUs. That's just to calibrate table space issues. There is also the issue of deeper bases for the chariots. Thoughts?

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:39 pm
by shall
FWIW at Rampage I found the key things were as follows:

1. Be patient it is an armyto exploit openings rather than force them
2. The chariots are pretty powerful if you shoot with them and make people charge you - often worth standing if they are DISred. USe plenty - I have 5 BGs
3. Keep the foot really simple - LF and normal egytpian MF in 6s. This is so they are very agile.
4. Use the foot very carefully in groups of 3 BGs with 2 providing rear support at deployment - clearly aim for terrain.
5. Generaly don't mix it until you have a good chance - use you drilled turn and moves and contracts to avoid combats
6. Work both flanks and don't fight too much in the centre.
7. Try to get rough terrian and gentle hills.

Worked well for me anyway.
22-3 vs Spartan, 23-2 vs Palmyran and 25-0 vs Medieval German.

Key thing is no 1 for sure.

Si

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:06 pm
by hazelbark
I think out of period the NKE should consider a sub general as an FC so 1 Chariot can flank march.

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:05 am
by IanB3406
A Flank march particularly in 25mm, esp if limited to teh 8 foot table. I have played the NKE in a 15mm theme and am thinking about giving them a go again in the next open tournament. The chariots are amazing to maneouver - Cav can match them however if the Cav aren't careful the NKE can get a one BG on one BG situation and.

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:14 am
by dave_r
I actually go completely the other way with my NKE's. I have lot's of infantry and the minimum number of chariots (i.e. 2 BG's of four). I use two large units of the Protected Impact Foot (12's) to tie the enemy in place and then use all the drilled MF to manoever around to get flank charges and such like.

They seem to be performing well, but every game I have with them is a massive slaughter. Which is good :)

Some of the most effective units I have are the 2x8 MF, Unprotected, Drilled, Bow. They tend to get ignored, but being drilled they can put down a lot of firepower into a space very quickly. They are also dirt cheap :)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:54 pm
by johno
Simon and Dave:

Any chance you could post list examples?

I've been playing Egyptians since 4th edition, I think (1975), and have them in both 15 and 25 - although I never did finish re-basing the 25s from 6th.

However, I haven't really got a handle on using them in FoG. I generally prefer to use the non-barbarian versions in 15mm, so no hordes of Impact foot. Here's the last 800 point list I used:

1 Palestinians LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Javs LtSpr 6
2 Palestinians LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Javs LtSpr 6
3 Nubian Archers LF Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - 6
4 Line Archers MF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - 6
5 Line Archers MF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - 6
6 Line Archers MF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - 6
7 Close Fighters MF Protected Average Drilled - LtSpr Swd 8
8 Close Fighters MF Protected Average Drilled - LtSpr Swd 8
9 Close Fighters MF Protected Average Drilled - LtSpr Swd 8
10 Chariots LCh - Superior Drilled Bow - 4
11 Chariots LCh - Superior Drilled Bow - 4
12 Chariots LCh - Superior Drilled Bow - 4
13 Chariots LCh - Superior Drilled Bow - 4

Plus 4 TC's

I'd be interested in other people's comments.

johno

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:19 pm
by dave_r
This is actually one of the very few armies that I think really does benefit from an IC.

IC + 3 TC's
2x4 Light Chariots, Superior, Drilled, Bow
2x6 LF, Javelin, Light Spear
1x6 LF, Bow
2x8 MF, Drilled, Unarmoured, Bow
1x6 MF, Drilled, Protected, Lt Spear, Swordsmen
1x4 HF, Drilled, Armoured, Lt Spear, Swordsmen
1x4 HF, Drilled, Armoured, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
1x12 MF, Undrilled, Protected, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
1x10 MF, Undrilled, Protected, Impact Foot, Swordsmen

12 BG's. 799 pts.

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:03 am
by IanB3406
Dave R,

Did you play this in an open or theme? I would think Simon's chariot version is better for an open.....but it's interesting to see a couple good players with widelyl different lists.....it gives me hope for these guys yet!

Ian Buttridge

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:39 am
by dave_r
I have only played NKE at the club so far. They are probably better in an open period than one restricted to Softer than Beagles. They need to use manoever, but in StB most people rely on Heavy Chariots, which can be a real pain to deal with. In an open period at least you are going to get a mix of armies, which you can take apart.

They really don't want to be facing large numbers of Armoured Drilled foot though, that would be bad...

Simon is bang on about not taking the lead though - in general you have got fewer BG's than your opponent and they aren't as good frontally either!

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:54 am
by shall
My list was as follows
  • 4 TCs
    1x 8 LF ave Bw
    1 x 8 MF jav
    2x6 MF Jav
    1x 8 MF Bow
    2x6 MF Bow
    5x4 LCh
12 BGs in total. Need to use chariots well but if you start them in 2 deep formation they are incredibly agile. 8s of MF are to give you 2 stronger BGs to force things a little more. Again start then 2 wide four deep and expand and move to good places. Don't rush to get the MF into combat. SWARM FIRST FIGHT SECOND.

Si

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:09 pm
by madaxeman
shall wrote: ... if you start them in 2 deep formation they are incredibly agile. 8s of MF are to give you 2 stronger BGs to force things a little more. Again start then 2 wide four deep and expand and move to good places. Don't rush to get the MF into combat. SWARM FIRST FIGHT SECOND.

Si
Did you cut and paste this text from the instruction manual for the DBM Standard Reigate Patrician Roman ..?

:wink:

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:14 pm
by shall
Did you cut and paste this text from the instruction manual for the DBM Standard Reigate Patrician Roman ..?
Well never really played that myself anyway so if I have it is accidental stumbling. Always preferred my blade camel mix and the Abbasids.
:wink:
Si

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:27 am
by madmike111
the ability of the MF bow and MF Lt spear/swordsmen to move through each other can be very useful.

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:47 am
by SirGarnet
Light Chariots are good at covering ground. I like having some deployed in the center while working on the flanks. They can evade or move away from things they don't want to fight. They can keep the enemy honest since he does not want them roaming around behind his lines - he has to cover his center, and if he stretches out his forces they may offer a nice target for converged archery or double-teaming with a charge.

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:52 am
by shall
My general plan was:

Terrain - aim to keep flanks clear and centre clear, and get terrain in between - so leav 6MU around flanks if possible.
  • Put chariots in line in front of enemy heavy and draw them forward.
    Press with MF through the terrain.
    Swarm flanks with chariots
Partly why the design is the way it is as it allows 1 Ch in centre and 2 on each flank plus a bow heavy and a jav heavy MF which pick the terrain most and least suitable for shooting. My impression is this is very much and army where your design and your default tabletop strategy have to be very well connected.

Seemed to work well for me. Scores probably a bit inflated as I was fillingt he bye slot, but felt I could have had a go at any army playing and managed the risks pretty well.

Si

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:58 am
by NickW
I think this is one of the worst armies I've seen in FOG.

Are unprotected MF Bow the most overpriced and horrific troops in the game?

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:33 am
by timmy1
Nick, I am not sure. If used in mass they can give shooty cav a real hard time.

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:42 am
by NickW
That's possibly about it, but if you mass them then the cavalry can run away and some infantry come up and kill them. They are horribly vulnerable to just about any infantry, including light foot. You can't take that many anyway as they are 6 points each, which is pretty expensive for something that's not really that good.

But, even against cavalry I'm not sure how good they are. Superior cavalry would shoot 4 @ 3 (S), which is an average of 3.1 hits, against the bow (if in 8s) shooting 6 @ 4 (A), which is an average of 3 hits.

Consider it a different way. Which would you take?
8 MF Bw Unprot Ave drilled @ 6 = 48 pts
or
6 MF Bw Sw Prot Ave drilled @ 8 = 48 pts

The latter are vastly superior in nearly every way.

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:18 am
by batesmotel
NickW wrote:That's possibly about it, but if you mass them then the cavalry can run away and some infantry come up and kill them. They are horribly vulnerable to just about any infantry, including light foot. You can't take that many anyway as they are 6 points each, which is pretty expensive for something that's not really that good.

But, even against cavalry I'm not sure how good they are. Superior cavalry would shoot 4 @ 3 (S), which is an average of 3.1 hits, against the bow (if in 8s) shooting 6 @ 4 (A), which is an average of 3 hits.

Consider it a different way. Which would you take?
8 MF Bw Unprot Ave @ 6 = 48 pts
or
6 MF Bw Sw Prot Ave @ 8 = 48 pts

The latter are vastly superior in nearly every way.
Undrilled MF archers are a good deal weaker since they can't get into position or out of trouble nearly as well. The approach that Si is recommending certainly sounds like it depends on maneuvering the MF to where it will be effective and not just lining it up and assuming blasting away will be good enough.

Chris

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:30 am
by hammy
NickW wrote:I think this is one of the worst armies I've seen in FOG.

Are unprotected MF Bow the most overpriced and horrific troops in the game?
Unprotected undrilled average MF bow are pretty rubbish but simply changing them to superior for 1 point makes them a lot better.

That said when I used 4 BG of 8 bases of them in a 650 point comp they did well enough and that was fighting entirely out of period armies.

I have played against an early Elamite army a couple of times at the club now and their massed unprotected MF bow have proved to be a reasonable challenge for both my Mittani which they beat fairly comfortably and my early Libyans who just prevailed after a couple of bad moves on the part of my opponent.

If unprotected undrilled average MF bow were only 5 points they would IMO be pretty good value. What makes them dangerous is the mass of troops.