Moors or Almohads.

[OrangeandWhiteDesign]

I am putting together a moor army about 1150AD in spain and have a few questions about the base units.

6 bases Black Guard HF Armoured Superior Drilled Javelins defensive spearmen

3 x 8 bases Berber Spear HF Protected Average Undrilled Javelins defensive spearmen
with supporting 4 bases Berber Archers LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow

6 bases Christain Knights Kn Armoured Superior Undrilled - Lancers Swordmen

2 x 6 bases Berber Cav Cv Protected Superior Undrilled Javelins Lancers

Do these sound right?

[karakhanid]

Hello, i should ask David Cáceres about it but i think that neither the Almohad nor the Almoravid should have christian subject or allied/mercenary troops, after all they came to Spain to bring back to the purity of the islam their Taifa cousins .
Mikel

[OrangeandWhiteDesign]

Under 7th ed and WAB they get Christian troops, so I assume they will still get them.

[robertthebruce]

The Feudal lists are no designed yet, but, I think you are wrong.


Black Guard were no Armoured.

Berber Spearmen, probably be Defesive Spearmen without Javelins.

Chirstian Knights, I don´t Know if will be incluyed.

Cavalry with Javelins Usually not use lance too.


The Almohad army was based in Light Horse and Spearmen.


David

[PELAGIUS]

I am putting together a moor army about 1150AD in spain and have a few questions about the base units.

6 bases Black Guard HF Armoured Superior Drilled Javelins defensive spearmen

3 x 8 bases Berber Spear HF Protected Average Undrilled Javelins defensive spearmen
with supporting 4 bases Berber Archers LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow

6 bases Christain Knights Kn Armoured Superior Undrilled - Lancers Swordmen

2 x 6 bases Berber Cav Cv Protected Superior Undrilled Javelins Lancers

Do these sound right?

*Hello there OaWD

*You seem to have chosen some quite "useful" definitions for what were pretty ordinary troops. The army was based around defensive spearmen and skirmishing light horse with Arab-Berber cavalry (of a very iffy nature). This is not a killer army!!! It is very pretty and romantic however

*The Black Guard - OK
*Berber spear - Defensive spear
*Christian knights - Could be a general but a little generous at 6 bases - 4 at the max but more like 2. Could have some skirmishing light horse (1 BG) and crossbowmen (MF, 1 BG)
*The cavalry should be min 1 BG of very ordinary cavalry plus 2 BG of skirmishers up to a max of 6!
*You can also include skirmishing javelinmen, slingers and archers (or even Mob)
*There are some interesting camelry options if you want

*Yours disgracefully

*Pelagius

[robertthebruce]

Balck Guard, Armoured?, Don´t Bet for this.

David

[PELAGIUS]

Balck Guard, Armoured?, Don´t Bet for this.

David

*While I think that the Black Guards will not be rated as Armoured in the lists I wonder why everyone is so sure they were not?

*Equivelant units in the Conquest, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatamid, Khurasanian, Andalusian etc armies of the period were armoured. This was a group of guards that existed for over 200 years in Murabit and Almohade armies variously. Is there some source that states they were not armoured?

*Yours disgracefully

*Pelagius

[robertthebruce]

*While I think that the Black Guards will not be rated as Armoured in the lists I wonder why everyone is so sure they were not?

It´s only a Personal Opinion.

Equivelant units in the Conquest, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatamid, Khurasanian, Andalusian etc armies of the period were armoured. This was a group of guards that existed for over 200 years in Murabit and Almohade armies variously. Is there some source that states they were not armoured?

There is no Black Guard in Conquest, Umayyad and Khurasanian lists.

Black Guard In Spain and North Africa were no Armoured, in fact they were almost Nude. In Andalusían Period, this guard wearing a Black "Chilbaba", Vertical eye Shield and very Long Spear, the Christians talk about them like Pikemen. But it´s no typical that muslim armies incluyed Armoured troops.


After the Berber Invasion in Spain, the Black Guard in the Almohad Army were equiped only with a Spear and shorts . They vowed to defend the caliph up to death. In the Battlefield they were buried up to their knees tied with chains, To prevent their escape and forcing them to fulfil their promise.

The Black Guard in Almohad Army was ever deployed in the army rear, defending the Muslim camp.


David

[karakhanid]

In the Battlefield they were buried up to their knees tied with chains, To prevent their escape and forcing them to fulfil their promise.

The Black Guard in Almohad Army was ever deployed in the army rear, defending the Muslim camp.

Where did i see those chains?
Oh, yes:

Mikel

[robertthebruce]

Yes, Sancho VII of Navarre, Defeat the Black Guard in "Navas de Tolosa", he entered in the Muslim Camp and the Chains was added to the Navarre heraldry. You can See it in the Spanish national Banner too.


David

[nikgaukroger]

*While I think that the Black Guards will not be rated as Armoured in the lists I wonder why everyone is so sure they were not?

*Equivelant units in the Conquest, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatamid, Khurasanian, Andalusian etc armies of the period were armoured. This was a group of guards that existed for over 200 years in Murabit and Almohade armies variously. Is there some source that states they were not armoured?

I'd be interested to know what you base this on - I wouldn't claim to have read everything on the subject but quite a bit and these armies are an abiding interest.

[OrangeandWhiteDesign]

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

The Units so far were based on the a combination of the 7th ed and WAB lists.

Under 7th ed. Black guard are 12-24 blackgaurd irr b or reg a, mi, lts, jav, sh , under wab they are much the same but have large shield and have the option of light Armour.

And the berber lc under 7th ed 36-100 berber cav - irr b, lc, jav, sh, 2/3 can u/g; eihter to irr a, or reg a

Hence I expected them to be superior.

[nikgaukroger]

IIRC the 7th edition lists put too much faith in the belief that Moslem armies were "fanatical" in behaviour and so irr A and B was thrown around with abandon. The guard as superior is OK though.

[robertthebruce]

IIRC the 7th edition lists put too much faith in the belief that Moslem armies were "fanatical" in behaviour and so irr A and B was thrown around with abandon. The guard as superior is OK though.

Only a few part in the army were Fanatics, The Muslim was the most advanced society in the world. Jihad is a Islamic comandment, like the Christians Comandments, is not A sample of fanaticism.


David

[PELAGIUS]

*While I think that the Black Guards will not be rated as Armoured in the lists I wonder why everyone is so sure they were not?

It´s only a Personal Opinion.

*And was a general observation as you are not the only person to state it

Equivelant units in the Conquest, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatamid, Khurasanian, Andalusian etc armies of the period were armoured. This was a group of guards that existed for over 200 years in Murabit and Almohade armies variously. Is there some source that states they were not armoured?

There is no Black Guard in Conquest, Umayyad and Khurasanian lists.

*Or the Fatimid, Abbasid or Andalusian Robert. My point was about equivelant troops - that is those that wear armour.

Black Guard In Spain and North Africa were no Armoured, in fact they were almost Nude.

* "Black" troops or Black Guards? The Berber and 'abid types may have been almost nude although the Arab word for nudenaked also covers mail armoured lancers (Jaffafa if I recall)

But it´s no typical that muslim armies incluyed Armoured troops.

* Muslim armies? All the Muslim armies I listed above had armoured foot let alone ghilman, Kurds, Dailami etc etc, I can add Ghaznavid as well A number of eye-witness accounts state that they "appear" unarmoured due to robes.

*But I see I am straying from the point

*Yours disgracefully

*Pelagius

[PELAGIUS]

IIRC the 7th edition lists put too much faith in the belief that Moslem armies were "fanatical" in behaviour and so irr A and B was thrown around with abandon. The guard as superior is OK though.

Only a few part in the army were Fanatics, The Muslim was the most advanced society in the world. Jihad is a Islamic comandment, like the Christians Comandments, is not A sample of fanaticism.


David

*A point well made!

*The Lamtunna period saw examples of rigorous self-discipline not fanaticism. I felt strongly that the DBM lists did the Berber armies a diservice with their reference to fanatics and lobbied stongly for it to be changed, successfully, to "Islamic Berber"

*Jihad was originally focussed upon the internal personal struggle for Faith

*Yours disgracefully

*Pelagius

[robertthebruce]

* Muslim armies? All the Muslim armies I listed above had armoured foot let alone ghilman, Kurds, Dailami etc etc, I can add Ghaznavid as well A number of eye-witness accounts state that they "appear" unarmoured due to robes.

All opinions are respected.

I´m not Talking about the east armies, I´m Talking About Almohads.



This is Santiago defeating the Black Guard in Navas de Tolosa





The painting is based in Christians cronicals. Muslim texts also described the Black guard as you can see in this picture. Almost nudes and tied with Chains.

Chains Conserved from this battle:



Sancho VII vs the Black Guard:





David

[chrisrivers]

Does anyone know which book the Murabits are going to be in?

[robertthebruce]

Feudal Europe, I think it will be released in early 2009.


Cheers

David

[Montesa]

Only a few part in the army were Fanatics, The Muslim was the most advanced society in the world. Jihad is a Islamic comandment, like the Christians Comandments, is not A sample of fanaticism.


David[/quote]

Urban legend, being raised by the “politically correct” historians and politics.
From the beginning the Muslims only were mere transporters of knowledge. And very, very few discoveries were made by them.
And at the century XI were bypassed by the westerners. And were superior the Byzantine, Chinese or Indian in most and many aspects to the Arab civilization.
Architecture: the horseshoe arc was of Visigoth inspiration, other architecture inspirations were Byzantine or Indian (mostly domes). The fortifications and castles (also the siege machines) were superior in the western, also before the arrive of the Arabs to Spain or Italy.
The Alhambra is a fortification of westerner design (but constructed by the grenadine rulers), and its decoration being beautiful and refined only used chalk and pottery (material considered poor). The expensive material was stone and woods. One thing, thanks to the Spanish that the Alhambra exist today (so great part of the mosque of Cordoba). Because the Almorabides and the Almohades (and were short-lived empires based in the Koran), when they ruled destroyed all the buildings that would represent “pleasure” . And nearly all the Frankish castles in Holy Land were also grounded.
And with the construction of the cathedrals that starts at the end of the IX century (200 years before the battle of Navas de Tolosa), West surpassed quite a lot in architecture in that time.
And one of the reasons that the Arabs expanded so quickly in North Africa and Spain was the existence of the roman roads.
Agriculture: the rice (so other products) was brought by the romans mistakenly believed that were the Arabs. And all the water system was roman that were loosely and difficultly maintained by the hispano-romans under the Visigoth rule and retaken by the Arabs.
In the sea, they had never ruled. And the monopoly of the commerce in the Mediterranean was broken with the start of the Crusades.
Philosophy was all based in classical works, mainly Aristotle’s. Example seen in Averroes and Maimonedes (who was a jew). Curiously both went to exile to Egypt having fear of the “fanaticals”. And no so few were fanatics. All the Islamics civilizations arounds the Koran in nearly all the aspect of life. The military orders (templars, hospitallers, and others) are based in the Islamic Ribat a aspect of the use of the Jihad. And yes the Jihad is a sample of fanatism. Read the Koran.
Mathematics: the number 0 was discovered by a Bhramagrupta in India 200 years before the Arabs did.
Equestrian: the horse breed in Spain was famous during the roman time named by Polibio and other writers. The Punic wars brought this horses to Spain and they were of Libyan stock. So the Arab horse only brought new blood.
And Olague says that in the Arab invasion the horses haven’t horseshoes. It’s a big mistake. When Julio Cesar went to Gallia, the horses of its opponents have them.
In law, I think it was better the Visigothic code (based in the roman law) than the Sharia so used in Spain during the moors domination.