Skirmishers with English HYW and WoTR...

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OhReally
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Skirmishers with English HYW and WoTR...

Post by OhReally » Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:21 am

I got painted figs coming this month that can cover both of these lists.

My problem is trying to figure out what to do with the lack of light troops. With my pikey armies I have LH and LF options aplently to choose from, but with HYW I have very little.

I'm really wanting to get a goodly # of Longbow on the table and back them up with Men at Arms. How many light troops should I be taking to not get totally outflanked and hosed?

I'm almost considering going WoTR as at least I can get three units of 8 javelin guys.
Lance
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"The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters."

OhReally
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Post by OhReally » Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:39 am

Here is the 800 point Lancaster list I was working on. After playing so many mobile armies lately I'm a tad afeared of LH. I'm not sure if longbowmen can just spin and shoot the crap out of them or if I am going to get hosed with just three units of skirmishers.

With four units of LB I don't really have a massive frontage, so I'm really worried about being surrounded and picked to pieces.



Men At Arms 6 HF Arm Sup Drilled * HW
Men At Arms 6 HF Arm Sup Drilled * HW
Men At Arms 6 HF Arm Sup Drilled * HW
Longbow 8 MF Prot Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen
Longbow 8 MF Prot Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen
Longbow 8 MF Prot Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen
Longbow 8 MF Prot Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen
Stakes 16
Irish Kerns 6 LF Unprot Average Undrilled Javelin Light Spear
Irish Kerns 6 LF Unprot Average Undrilled Javelin Light Spear
Irish Kerns 6 LF Unprot Average Undrilled Javelin Light Spear

IC 1
TC 1
TC 1

Total 792
Lance
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Atlanta, GA

"The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters."

SirGarnet
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Post by SirGarnet » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:23 am

I've too have seen LH dance around and torment Undrilled Bowmen unable to nimbly turn and wheel to bring shooting to bear, but when the MF get to unload a full volley of 6 dice it can hit hard. Playing LH on a flank I'd be seeking to get round your flank rather than tangle with it directly. LH flank guards can seriously interfere with that only if they fight, which with Lt Spears they could do.

Cavalry won't be able to dance around Drilled Longbowmen since you get a + against them if they leave one rank depth, and you are able to turn and wheel to face them unless tied to your emplaced stakes.

My concern with using the LF is that they can prevent non-LH that outwing you from getting many second moves in on the approach to a flanking position, but in the open they are liable to being run over by LH that get close.

I'm curious what your battle doctrine will be for the bows and men-at-arms working together.

Mike

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Post by OhReally » Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:16 pm

MikeK wrote:I've too have seen LH dance around and torment Undrilled Bowmen unable to nimbly turn and wheel to bring shooting to bear, but when the MF get to unload a full volley of 6 dice it can hit hard. Playing LH on a flank I'd be seeking to get round your flank rather than tangle with it directly. LH flank guards can seriously interfere with that only if they fight, which with Lt Spears they could do.

Cavalry won't be able to dance around Drilled Longbowmen since you get a + against them if they leave one rank depth, and you are able to turn and wheel to face them unless tied to your emplaced stakes.

My concern with using the LF is that they can prevent non-LH that outwing you from getting many second moves in on the approach to a flanking position, but in the open they are liable to being run over by LH that get close.

I'm curious what your battle doctrine will be for the bows and men-at-arms working together.

Mike
My idea was to hold the men at arms in support behind the Longbow, but honestly I'm going to have to play a handful of games to see how this works. I'm thinking I might have to many men at arms and maybe can add in some other things here.

Hopefully the army will be in later this month and I can start playing around with it.
Lance
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Atlanta, GA

"The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters."

hazelbark
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Post by hazelbark » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:51 am

my concern with 10 BGs you can't handle a war of attrition. I think the LF are only helpful for bulk. You don't need them for much.

The hardest part of this army is you basically need more Longbow as they are your battle winners. No matter how many you have you want more.

OhReally
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Post by OhReally » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:52 am

hazelbark wrote:my concern with 10 BGs you can't handle a war of attrition. I think the LF are only helpful for bulk. You don't need them for much.

The hardest part of this army is you basically need more Longbow as they are your battle winners. No matter how many you have you want more.
I'm not sure how to handle any enemy skirmishers without any of my own. That is what the kerns are ideally for.
Lance
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Atlanta, GA

"The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters."

ethan
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Post by ethan » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:49 am

OhReally wrote:
hazelbark wrote:my concern with 10 BGs you can't handle a war of attrition. I think the LF are only helpful for bulk. You don't need them for much.

The hardest part of this army is you basically need more Longbow as they are your battle winners. No matter how many you have you want more.
I'm not sure how to handle any enemy skirmishers without any of my own. That is what the kerns are ideally for.
Longbows will destroy skirmishers that try and stop them.

One real strength is that the longbowmen are very hard to slow down...

david53
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Post by david53 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:10 pm

OhReally wrote:Here is the 800 point Lancaster list I was working on. After playing so many mobile armies lately I'm a tad afeared of LH. I'm not sure if longbowmen can just spin and shoot the crap out of them or if I am going to get hosed with just three units of skirmishers.

With four units of LB I don't really have a massive frontage, so I'm really worried about being surrounded and picked to pieces.



Men At Arms 6 HF Arm Sup Drilled * HW
Men At Arms 6 HF Arm Sup Drilled * HW
Men At Arms 6 HF Arm Sup Drilled * HW
Longbow 8 MF Prot Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen
Longbow 8 MF Prot Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen
Longbow 8 MF Prot Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen
Longbow 8 MF Prot Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen
Stakes 16
Irish Kerns 6 LF Unprot Average Undrilled Javelin Light Spear
Irish Kerns 6 LF Unprot Average Undrilled Javelin Light Spear
Irish Kerns 6 LF Unprot Average Undrilled Javelin Light Spear

IC 1
TC 1
TC 1

Total 792

Have I missed something I make it 870 points without the irish I take IC to mean inspired commander, might be wrong just though you seemed to have a lot of figures more than my english army.
Dave

ethan
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Post by ethan » Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:18 pm

I found a single battle group if Irish LH to be very handy in the HYW list, basically you can slow down the enemy on one flank (and since HYW tend to deploy somewhat narrowly that is handy).

More Skirmishers than that are simply unnecessary, if you take them they are there to bulk up the army not to actually do anything. Skirmishing in front of longbows is basically suicide. I have won at least a couple of games with the English by vaporizing large numbers of enemy skirmishers that tried to slow down the longbows...just isn't going to happen.

As was noted elswhere in this thread, this is a major strength of hte Englihs, unenganged longbows on the flank have enormous reach. They move 4" and shoot 6" so so things withing in 10" of them are potentially at risk at all times. At key points the best plan is just to ignore the enemy skirmishers and turn into the enemy main line and open fire and/or look for flanks to charge.

Claudius
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Post by Claudius » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:36 pm

There were some earlier forum posts with much useful info on these WOTR topics [and on the related HYW English army's composition]. Use the Forum "search" function to find them.

Remember that the WOTR MF/Longbow are drilled, and so are quite maneuverable.
WOTR HF/Men@Arms are also drilled.
MF/LB and HF/M@Arms can interpenetrate each others' formations.
Being both drilled and able to interpenetrate provides combat flexibility.

Depending on who you are [Richard III, Tudor, York, et al], a few LF [Kerns, Bretons or Mercenary handgunners] 4-base BG, a LH/North Border Horse 4-base BG, or a 4-base Cv Currours BG add counter-LH/LF capability to the WTOR mix - as well as posing a credible threat to the opponent's flanks.

If you are feeling extravagant, add the Mounted Men@Arms Kn [Royal Guards or Other] BGs to provide some mounted punch as the battle progresses.
Cheers!

Ne bibere venenum in auro!

marty
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Post by marty » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:56 am

dump the stakes, you are better off moving. I have played wotr and 100yw in a range of configurations and have found they all work pretty well. My current preference is for YP wotr which is as follows

IC, 2 TC

2 6el arm, sup men at arms

4 8 el LB no stakes

2 8 el pike

1 6el prot LI firearms

2 6 el kerns LI

1 2 el Light artillery

I have found this pretty succesfull. Im not sure about the artillery and would perhaps dump them.

martin

ethan
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Post by ethan » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:21 pm

marty wrote:dump the stakes, you are better off moving.
I strongly disagree. Without stakes you have all sorts of problems against mounted with longbow armies.

You don't necessarily use them a lot, but the threat of them really forces game play changes on mounted.

Claudius
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Post by Claudius » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:27 am

Here is a working 800-point WoTR Yorkist Army that offers operational flexibility by having:
> Cv, LH and LF BG to protect the flanks or engage skirmishers, or engage threat flanks
> Field Fortifications to enable forward placement of the LB and HF units, protect the LB/HF units and/or help block terrain choke points.
> a desirable [and historical] 2::1 ratio of LB BG to HF BG
> the LB in effective 8-base units and the HF is maneuverable 4-base units.

BG/UNIT NAME #BASES TYPE QUALITIES/CAPABILITIES
Unfortified Camp 1
Field Fortifications 12 FF
Merc. Handgunner 6 LF Prot Ave Drld Firearm
No. Border Horse 4 LH Prot Ave Undrl Lancers Swrdsmn
Currours 4 Cv Armr'd Ave Drld Lancers Swrdsmn
Retinue LB 8 MF Prot Ave Drld LB Swrdsmn
Retinue LB 8 MF Prot Ave Drld LB Swrdsmn
Retinue LB 8 MF Prot Ave Drld LB Swrdsmn
Retinue LB 8 MF Prot Ave Drld LB Swrdsmn
Dismount Men@Arms 4 HF Armr'd Sup Drld Hvy Wep
Dismount Men@Arms 4 HF Armr'd Sup Drld Hvy Wep
Dismount Men@Arms 4 HF Armr'd Sup Drld Hvy Wep
Dismount Men@Arms 4 HF Armr'd Sup Drld Hvy Wep
Troop Commanders 2 TC
C-in-C (Edward IV) 1 IC
Cheers!

Ne bibere venenum in auro!

MrWalker
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Post by MrWalker » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:21 pm

Don´t you have to have 4-8 bases of Northern Border Spearmen if you have them northern horseses?

Claudius
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Post by Claudius » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:19 pm

No - please refer to page 16 of Storm Of Arrows.
Recruiting NorthBorder LH doesn't require recruiting NB spearmen - or vice-versa.
Cheers!

Ne bibere venenum in auro!

MCollett
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Post by MCollett » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:01 pm

Claudius wrote:No - please refer to page 16 of Storm Of Arrows.
Recruiting NorthBorder LH doesn't require recruiting NB spearmen - or vice-versa.
There is a '*'ed minimum of 4 NB spearmen, which applies, according to the aforementioned p.16, "if any troops of that origin are used". So MrWalker is right: you can't have the NB horse (or NB billmen or longbowmen) without some NB spearmen. You can have the spearmen without any of the others.

Best wishes,
Matthew

Claudius
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Post by Claudius » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:05 am

I sent the rather worthless NB spearmen home on family leave for the battle.
Cheers!

Ne bibere venenum in auro!

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