Carthage vs. Pyrrhos which list?
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Carthage vs. Pyrrhos which list?
I was wondering if I were to try and recreate Carthage vs. Pyrrhos battles would the early or later Carthaginian list be more appropriate. I know the Rise of Rome book says the later list is after the war with pyrros but the two lists end and begin right around the battles with Pyrrhos. At this time were the Carthaginians still using chariots? Did they start to use elephants yet? What type of cavalry were they using? Did they still have a sacred band?
actually it is not speculative. pyrrhus was asked by the greek cities in sicily to come and drive carthage out in 278 bc. this would make it the early list. though he defeated them in two encounters he was eventually forced to leave sicily. there are no details of the troops that carthage used against pyrrhus in those encounters.Probert wrote:I would use the later list, as that is what I am already painting up.
Because it is a speculative encounter, use whichever list is more fun.
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Last reference to chariots in a Carthaginian army I could find was in 309BC. Agathocles of Syracuse invaded North Africa and defeated a Carthaginian force of some 40 000 with his army of around 15 000 but failed to capture Carthage itself. In the Carthaginian army were said to be 1 000 horse and 2 000 chariots. Some historians suggest it was this defeat that led the Carhaginians to abandon chariots in favour of horsemen and it was about this time that they began to use elephants.
Forces of Pyhrrus certainly fought the Carthaginians in Sicily and all but drove them from the island. Carthage allied itself to Rome and it was the Carthaginian destruction of Pyrrhus' navy that was another factor in his pulling out of the war with Rome.
It is widely believed that the Sacred Band of Carthage was destroyed at Crimissus in 341BC according to Plutarch's Life of Timoleon but a reference in Wikipedia suggest it may have been reformed only to be destroyed again by, guess who, Agathocles!
IMO in recreating the campaign of Epirot armies in Carthaginian Sicily, I would not include chariots, Sacred Band, elephants, any but a handful of spanish-origin troops or any Gauls in the Carthaginian force. I think most of the Carthaginians would have been Greek-style mercenaries and troops of African origin, thoug I have to admit I have no historical evidence to quote to support this!
Martin
Forces of Pyhrrus certainly fought the Carthaginians in Sicily and all but drove them from the island. Carthage allied itself to Rome and it was the Carthaginian destruction of Pyrrhus' navy that was another factor in his pulling out of the war with Rome.
It is widely believed that the Sacred Band of Carthage was destroyed at Crimissus in 341BC according to Plutarch's Life of Timoleon but a reference in Wikipedia suggest it may have been reformed only to be destroyed again by, guess who, Agathocles!
IMO in recreating the campaign of Epirot armies in Carthaginian Sicily, I would not include chariots, Sacred Band, elephants, any but a handful of spanish-origin troops or any Gauls in the Carthaginian force. I think most of the Carthaginians would have been Greek-style mercenaries and troops of African origin, thoug I have to admit I have no historical evidence to quote to support this!
Martin
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I think you've got it right there. It would certainly "feel right".WhiteKnight wrote: IMO in recreating the campaign of Epirot armies in Carthaginian Sicily, I would not include chariots, Sacred Band, elephants, any but a handful of spanish-origin troops or any Gauls in the Carthaginian force. I think most of the Carthaginians would have been Greek-style mercenaries and troops of African origin.....