3 horrible flaws in this game..

Fantasy General II - Invasion is the reimagination of the strategy game classic from the 90s!

Armies once again draw battle-lines on the war-torn land of Keldonia, and a new generation of commanders will test their bravery and tactics against each other. Fantasy wargaming is back!
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jeffoot77
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3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by jeffoot77 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:52 pm

hello, i just would like to talk about 3 flaws i can't stand in the game :

For me ,there are 3 horrible flaws in the game that ruins all the fun of playing. :(
The first is the aspect of exploration (looking for chests, objects ..) which just doesn't exist ! since it is necessary to rush the objective if player want some gold at the end. The game could at least offer some gold event when there no more turn at the end!
The second flaw is that you can not move after attacking! It limits the strategy enormously !
And finally the third flaw is that we have no choice to occupy or not the enemy hex when enemy is dead .

what do you think?

For me, it ruins the game.

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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by terje439 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:57 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:52 pm
hello, i just would like to talk about 3 flaws i can't stand in the game :

For me ,there are 3 horrible flaws in the game that ruins all the fun of playing. :(

1. The first is the aspect of exploration (looking for chests, objects ..) which just doesn't exist ! since it is necessary to rush the objective if player want some gold at the end. The game could at least offer some gold event when there no more turn at the end!

2. The second flaw is that you can not move after attacking! It limits the strategy enormously !

3. And finally the third flaw is that we have no choice to occupy or not the enemy hex when enemy is dead .

what do you think?

For me, it ruins the game.
1. It gets better after the first few missions as mission timers get longer
2. Can be annoying, but is something I have learnt to deal with.
3. Now only some of the units will push in atleast. But this can be annoying, yes.

LDiCesare
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by LDiCesare » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:24 pm

1. There are ruins etc. The rewards you get usually outrigh the 25 gold loss of losing one turn to get there. Also, in many maps, you have so much fog of war that you have to scout/explore anyway.
2. I think this makes the game more strategic. Discounting those units that can do hit and run, since there is no penalty for leaving zone of control, the 'no move after action' rule forces your melee unit to subject themselves to retaliation, which makes sense. I think moving after attacking while being subject to a free attack inside a ZoC would also work, but I quite like the current design.
3. Yes, only issue for me is the fact that you have to move into the enemy's hex, which you may not want most of the time. That should probably be the case only for 'charge' attacks, and you should have the option to either charge or use normal attack.

13obo
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by 13obo » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:45 am

It seems all the "flaws" you list are taken from other hex-based strategy games you've played and are used to. Yes, FG2 has different design choices and ambitions but that doesn't make it bad, only different- this is something you should get used to instead of trying to get the game changed to what you like. It would help you a lot to enjoy the game more, trust me!

jeffoot77
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by jeffoot77 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:04 am

"It seems all the "flaws" you list are taken from other hex-based strategy games you've played and are used to"


-- > totally false !

- in panzer corps, you haven't all theses "flaws" except maybe the first but in the options you can add 5 turns and it is sufficient enough to clear all the map.

- In druidstone : none of the 3 "flaws"

- in order of battle: none of the 3 "flaws" : except the first but like in panzer corps, you can add all the turns you want.

- in strategy command world war II: none of the 3 flaws

- in panzer tactics HD : none except the first

- in panzer strategy : none except the first one

- in eleven legacy : none except the first one : and you can choose if you occupy or not the hex when you win. Why not this choice in fantasy general II?

- in battle academy : none except the first one

- in army general : none except the first one.

...


For example, give me one game where there is the third flaw ? it is unique and only in fantasy general!

And for the second flaw, give me an other example of a game where you can't move after attacking? I can't find one !

13obo
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by 13obo » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:53 am

Precisely, what I was conveying is that you're referring to other games that do not have the "flaws" as per your list. And my answer is- FG2 design choices are... Design choices and not oversights.

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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by Cadeyrn » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:17 pm

Most ruins have more than 25 gold so they are relatively better than losing just 1 turn. They may not be worth losing 2 or 3 turns. But there is also a chance of getting magic items or weapons / armor / mana. A good drop gives your troops more power than they would otherwise have so IMO they are worth it. My first several campaigns I was swimming in gold by the 10th map. What I really wanted and needed was liquid mana. As others pointed out that really starts to flow in the swamps. Maybe some things should be for sale?

I'd also like to be able to sell magic items that are useless to me to declutter that inventory.

And I really, really, really miss the "back" button from other strategy games which let you reverse a move if you miss the target hex - so long as you haven't been attacked or found new enemies. Can we have a "back" button please?

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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by LDiCesare » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:24 pm

Regarding being unable to move after attacking, that's also the case in other games such as Age of Wonders: Planetfall that just came out. There are probably many others but I just don't know all the games. It's a valid design choice in my opinion, but I'd like to hear why one thinks it makes a game unplayable. The only thing I can think of is hit'n'run tactics with cavalry, but that can be done already.

PanzerG
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by PanzerG » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:17 pm

Dang, cant move after attack, have to occupy a field....chess has the same "flaws" :D

1) you can collect those treasures with flying units like Pegasi later, and some units/artifacts also lift fog of war for part of the map
2 and 3) get your mix of melee/ranged/flying/amphibious units right, take care not to loose to much health on melee attacks, move in blocks of units and cover the frontline with ranged defense.

jeffoot77
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by jeffoot77 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:33 pm

in chess you jave only one action. You can't move and attack. In FG2 , you can move and attack but not attack and move: it is nonsense!

for 3 ) it is horrible because, you use your bowmen first but they can't move after so when you use your infantery unit in the second phase, they advance towards the enemy hex and they are no more protected by your bowmen.

The best turn by turn game for me is Jagged alliance 2 : big map , a free world, you can explore all the maps without timeout , you can move and attack or move and attack, the more possibilities you have, the more fun you get.

PanzerG
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by PanzerG » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:32 pm

in chess you move and attack, same as with melee in FG2....and the other analogy: you have to think before you move/attack.
And the third analogy: before you move you have to consider the position of all your units after the move. You think tactically where you have to think strategically !
During beta testing it took me 200 hrs to get thru the campaign without loosing a single unit.
I call that challenge, not flaw.

As to bowmen: you can eg move them directly next to target, shoot, move in melee unit to an other hex adjacent to target, kill , voila, your melee unit is covered. Or you do a near kill wih the melee unit, move archer behind it and have him finish the kill....combine attacks correctly is the way to adapt to what you call a flaw.

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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by georgioz » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:48 am

The first "flaw" is nonexistent. Other similar games give you certain thresholds to beat the enemy for various rewards. This game does the same - except the threshold is literally every single turn. Take a reward for early victory or make a risk to explore to obtain good loot - or maybe just cursed item. In fact this is not a flaw but and advantage in my eyes.

The other two "flaws" are just design choices. The move after attack makes attacks more favorable as player can rotate melee units in and out of the contested frontline turning melee units into into pseudo-skirmishers. It also affects ranged units significantly. The range unit rotation makes them very powerful on attack as you can concentrate twice as much damage on the narrow front. On the other hand melee unit rotations make defensive fire of ranged units comparatively weaker as they can now face twice the number of melee attackers hindering range units ability to support their frontline units properly. I actually like the FG2 system as it is harder for player - as often it is player that is on attack. However this is by no means what you have to do - you can as well take defensive position and have AI commit onto you. The scenarios have longer time limits compared to similar games and careful defensive strategy is a viable option here - especially since maps are large and most of the time it is possible or even advisable to split your force into multiple columns so that you can cover more ground.

The third flaw is again just a design choice. And I also do not mind mostly because the damage does not have random aspect to it. You always see if you kill an enemy with your melee attacker so you can predict your position. And as other people here said this can also be turned into your advantage as you can take ground with your melee units opening spots for ranged support etc.

To conclude my guess is that you are just frustrated that the aggressive strategy of land grabs and overwhelming strong AI defense position with numbers does not work for you and you just blame it on the "flaws" of the game. My take is that it is more of a sign of flawed strategy you deploy.

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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by Bear_and_balalaika » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:21 pm

Actually straight rushing is less profitable then exploring.
As one wealth costs 25 gold, ending even with 10 turns left provides you 250 gold, but exploring only one ruin may provide you nearly 100 gold and there are plenty of ruins.
At first I thought wealth is some limitation, like ending on gold in Panzer General, but in FG2 it is far more forgiving.

jeffoot77
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by jeffoot77 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:58 pm

"To conclude my guess is that you are just frustrated that the aggressive strategy of land grabs and overwhelming strong AI defense position with numbers does not work for you and you just blame it on the "flaws" of the game. My take is that it is more of a sign of flawed strategy you deploy."

--> lol , i have almost finished the game and it was rather easy. The game is too easy even with the flaws. The AI is so stupid with rushing you that you can easily just waiting the enemy units with ambush and chase them after.

To conclude my guess is that you just don"t want admit that the gameplay is limited by theses flaws. In this kinf of game, the more possibilities you have the more fun you have. In FG2, all is done to limit the gameplay : the simple fact that we haven't not the choice to advance in hex or not when we are charging is just a nonsense. How could you deny that ?

LDiCesare
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by LDiCesare » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:44 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:58 pm
"To conclude my guess is that you are just frustrated that the aggressive strategy of land grabs and overwhelming strong AI defense position with numbers does not work for you and you just blame it on the "flaws" of the game. My take is that it is more of a sign of flawed strategy you deploy."

--> lol , i have almost finished the game and it was rather easy. The game is too easy even with the flaws. The AI is so stupid with rushing you that you can easily just waiting the enemy units with ambush and chase them after.

To conclude my guess is that you just don"t want admit that the gameplay is limited by theses flaws. In this kinf of game, the more possibilities you have the more fun you have. In FG2, all is done to limit the gameplay : the simple fact that we haven't not the choice to advance in hex or not when we are charging is just a nonsense. How could you deny that ?
You asked if someone could give you examples of games where players cannot move after attack. Some examples were given (chess, AoW:Planetfall). What do you answer to that?
As for "limiting gameplay", for not being able to do certain things, would you say, for example, in chess, your gameplay is limited because your pawns can't move as far as queens unless you brought them to the last row first. Is this nonsense limiting gameplay or is your argument nonsensical?

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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by giorgios58 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:07 pm

I was doing fine until Krell's castle. Waves of lizards so that no matter what i try, their 5 and 6 hex moves surround the missile infantry rendering them useless or dead, or they gang up on a hero or two. UNFUN. And doing a simple turtle maneuver is also UNFUN. One hex forward, stop one hex forward top, defend, rebuild, one step forward. In Krell, that is painful, spend hours on the stupid scenario. How about a trainer or cheat please? I promise i only use on this one scenario.

jeffoot77
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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by jeffoot77 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:12 pm

"You asked if someone could give you examples of games where players cannot move after attack. Some examples were given (chess, AoW:Planetfall). What do you answer to that?"

--> in chess , there is only ONE ACTION by turn so this is not a game where there is 2 actions by turn! : moving and attacking !

When you have 2 actions by turn, it is logical to have the choice to begin by what you want: either move then attack ou attack then move! this is clearly a regression ! that ruins the game!

I don't know age of wonder but if it is a similar gameplay, that is also a regression for this kind of game.

and i don't mention all the others bad things in the game like the Heroes who have very few special attacks , they just serve to tank. Or like the Units that have more than 3/10 alive which do as much damage as units that have 10/10 ... just not logical .... also , the fleeing enemies are a good thing but they can regenerate the following turn if we do not finish them! so the player is forced to pursue them and sometimes, it is just impossible to finish them (like scout unit) . What a pity, it would have needed a max for regeneration like +2 max per turn and not entire full replinishment..

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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by PanzerG » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:34 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:12 pm
and i don't mention all the others bad things in the game like the Heroes who have very few special attacks , they just serve to tank. Or like the Units that have more than 3/10 alive which do as much damage as units that have 10/10 ... just not logical .... also , the fleeing enemies are a good thing but they can regenerate the following turn if we do not finish them! so the player is forced to pursue them and sometimes, it is just impossible to finish them (like scout unit) . What a pity, it would have needed a max for regeneration like +2 max per turn and not entire full replinishment..
Sry, but i think you havent really looked beneath the surface of this game.
Heroes: upgrade them and you get all kinds of special abilities, same goes for some artifacts.
fleeing/regenerate: works for both sides, and perfect if you learn to use it. "dont find them" ? use recon !
also: fleeing is a certain probability, so you simply load a (auto)savegame....
Start to play more strategically, consider the placement of all units before and after a move, use recon, distribute artifacts to fit the scenario, plan your upgrade trees, save/load....
Basically thats what you do in all turnbased strategy games....
giorgios58 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:07 pm
I was doing fine until Krell's castle. Waves of lizards so that no matter what i try, their 5 and 6 hex moves surround the missile infantry rendering them useless or dead, or they gang up on a hero or two. UNFUN. And doing a simple turtle maneuver is also UNFUN. One hex forward, stop one hex forward top, defend, rebuild, one step forward. In Krell, that is painful, spend hours on the stupid scenario. How about a trainer or cheat please? I promise i only use on this one scenario.
that one is indeed one of the more challenging scenarios, but it's perfectly doable. I did it on easy during the beta (took 2 or 3 attempts to get all the loot within turnlimit) and on first try in both normal and hard.

Same as i told the guy above: consider the placement of all units before and after a move, use recon, distribute artifacts to fit the scenario, plan your upgrade trees, save/load....
The general advise is to unite your 3 groups from placement into 2 groups and have 1 do the left side of map, the other the right side. And use Pegasi for recon/loot

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Re: 3 horrible flaws in this game..

Post by LDiCesare » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:39 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:For example, give me one game where there is the third flaw ? it is unique and only in fantasy general!
I don't know age of wonder but if it is a similar gameplay, that is also a regression for this kind of game.
[/quote]
jeffoot77 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:12 pm
I don't know age of wonder but if it is a similar gameplay, that is also a regression for this kind of game.
Would you care to explain why, precisely, this is bad? I'm really interested, as I know some game designers who would have a system like this, some players who say that it limits them, but I fail to understand the problem. In fact, I find move+attack+move to be way too easy to exploit and cheese to be very interesting. It removes tough decisions such as endangering oneself and allows to avoid any kind of commitment. Having only 2 actions (either move+attack or attack+move) is another option. Do you consider such a system ok or is it still not flexible enough for you, and why?

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