The new scoring system...

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by madaxeman » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:24 pm

I suspect asking players to cough up cash to enter an event before knowing the scoring system, handicap system, and which troop types will be permitted to be used would not be a particularly sensible way to encourage increased attendance ...
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:20 pm

I suspect asking players to cough up cash to enter an event before knowing the scoring system, handicap system, and which troop types will be permitted to be used would not be a particularly sensible way to encourage increased attendance ...
Fair comment. Perhaps polling previous entrants before a season begins as to scoring systems and handicaps might be a more democratic way of deciding changes. Should be quite easy to arrange.

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:32 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:20 pm
I suspect asking players to cough up cash to enter an event before knowing the scoring system, handicap system, and which troop types will be permitted to be used would not be a particularly sensible way to encourage increased attendance ...
Fair comment. Perhaps polling previous entrants before a season begins as to scoring systems and handicaps might be a more democratic way of deciding changes. Should be quite easy to arrange.
That's exactly what we did.
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:00 pm

That's exactly what we did.
Well, I didn't get asked. How many did you contact?

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by madaxeman » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:58 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:00 pm
That's exactly what we did.
Well, I didn't get asked. How many did you contact?
It looks like the poll ran for a month on this site, and was the second most widely-read posting in the "tournaments" section all year with almost 1,400 views.

24 replies is equivalent to almost 50% of the total number of people who've ever entered any sort of V3 competition up until now, anywhere in the world.

I'm not sure Dave and Pete could be expected to do much more consultation than getting the views of almost 50% of the UK competition player base, and giving everyone a month to read and comment.. ?

You however didn't post anything on the forum in that same month, so maybe you were one of the few who missed it ?
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by petedalby » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:39 am

in the case of Britcon, whether polearms should be allowed?
I think this illustrates your problem Chris. You don't like the answer to your question so you keep asking. You've asked about polearms previously and been answered. Everyone who has entered Britcon knows what lists are being used. The author himself has confirmed that it would be wrong to assume that all HW become polearms. And yet despite all of that here it comes again.

Just let it go. It's not going to change.
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:04 pm

I think this illustrates your problem Chris. You don't like the answer to your question so you keep asking.
If complaining about the way vital decisions on our rules system are made by 'the few' then yes, I do have a problem. This site is visited by a small (and very keen) cross section of the FOG playing community. A fairer way of doing things would be to discuss matters first, then e-mail all the players who have taken part over the last year or so with the options, and ask for a democratic vote. Allowing a small number of players to dictate what should or shouldn't happen is just bad news for FOG. The dramatically falling player numbers shows there is something seriously wrong - and I get criticised for seeking change. Brilliant!

It's been suggested that 50% of the player base voted in favour of the change. That's arrant nonsense! At the end of 2017 the player rankings showed 83 players involved. I make that 29%, not 50. There are 68 listed in the latest 2018 rankings; that's 35% at best. I don't think I'm stretching things to say that virtually all of them could be e-mailed and asked to vote, instead of relying on the opinions of the very keenest (on here). It might result in decisions made by the majority, rather then a select few, and stop the rot.

I compared the rankings for the start of 2016 (when there were 140 players listed) with the latest one. Of the top 50 36% have dropped out. Of the next 50 66% have gone and a massive 74% of the bottom 40 no longer compete. I originally complained of the way the new scoring system seemed designed to inflate egos, rather than reflect the true result of a game. Consideration for new or less experienced players was being completely ignored and I think the figures I've quoted support that view.

Carry on regardless and the figures will continue to decline. The ADLG community must be giggling with anticipation!
You've asked about polearms previously and been answered. Everyone who has entered Britcon knows what lists are being used. The author himself has confirmed that it would be wrong to assume that all HW become polearms. And yet despite all of that here it comes again.
Where and when did I suggest all HW should become polearms? Even in the old books some troops are described or EVEN LISTED as carrying polearms, yet 'the letter of the law' has to be applied regardless.
Just let it go.
Oh, I have! I'm not complaining again about the actual ruling (no polearms) so much as the manner in which it was carried out. My comment (on this post) was about the way FUTURE decisions might be made, not the inflexibility of what's happened with this year's Britcon event (which I've entered - and probably with troops carrying HW instead of the historical polearms they actually wielded!).
It's not going to change.
That is the real problem. What's in place now clearly isn't working. I can't help wondering how many more players we have to lose before something positive is done?

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by madaxeman » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:06 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:04 pm
It's been suggested that 50% of the player base voted in favour of the change. That's arrant nonsense! At the end of 2017 the player rankings showed 83 players involved. I make that 29%, not 50. There are 68 listed in the latest 2018 rankings; that's 35% at best. I don't think I'm stretching things to say that virtually all of them could be e-mailed and asked to vote, instead of relying on the opinions of the very keenest (on here). It might result in decisions made by the majority, rather then a select few, and stop the rot.
There are - as of today - 53 people who have taken part in at least one of the 8 V3.0 FoG competitions to take place in the UK. The UK rankings include all events - V2 and V3 - in the last 12 months, but I'm not sure there's a case for polling people who haven't ever played V3 in an event.

Those 8 competitions have also been organised by 6 different clubs/organisations, meaning no-one has access to a single database of all V3 player contact details across all 6 groups anyway, never mind GDPR considerations. So, in all practical terms, the idea of emailing everyone who's played V3 is simply impossible.

With both of these in mind, I'm still struggling to see why putting a poll on the official forum for the FoG community could be argued not to be the best possible way of consulting the widest possible group of interested players? The fact the topic was viewed so many times proves that there was a lot of interest and engagement with the active V3 community as well.
ChrisTofalos wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:04 pm
I compared the rankings for the start of 2016 (when there were 140 players listed) with the latest one. Of the top 50 36% have dropped out. Of the next 50 66% have gone and a massive 74% of the bottom 40 no longer compete. I originally complained of the way the new scoring system seemed designed to inflate egos, rather than reflect the true result of a game. Consideration for new or less experienced players was being completely ignored and I think the figures I've quoted support that view.
The rate of decline in FoGAM numbers has if anything slowed a little since V3 came out (and the new scoring system was adopted at a few - but not all of - the events). From Jan-July last year there were 72 players who entered events, and this year the total is 53. The main difference comes in the loss of the Scottish players many of whom who only took part in Schiltron, which has now gone from the FoG Circuit. This took 12 players with it out of the rankings. There have also been so far this year 9 "new" players who have entered a V3 event but didn't appear in the rankings last year at all, which is more "new" players than FoG has seen for several years.
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by vexillia » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:39 pm

madaxeman wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:06 pm
The rate of decline in FoGAM numbers has if anything slowed a little since V3 came out (and the new scoring system was adopted at a few - but not all of - the events). From Jan-July last year there were 72 players who entered events, and this year the total is 53. The main difference comes in the loss of the Scottish players many of whom who only took part in Schiltron, which has now gone from the FoG Circuit. This took 12 players with it out of the rankings. There have also been so far this year 9 "new" players who have entered a V3 event but didn't appear in the rankings last year at all, which is more "new" players than FoG has seen for several years.
Some care is needed in interpreting theses numbers. Here's an alternative (& shorter) version:
  • Player numbers down from 72 to 53 (-26%) year on year.
  • Player numbers continue to decline.
  • 12 of 19 dropped out because of no FOG at Schiltron.
  • 9 of 53 are new to FOG v3 leaving 44 "returning" or regular players .
  • Adjusting drop in numbers for returning players only gives a drop from 72 to 44 (-39%).
  • Likewise effect of Schiltron becomes 12 of 28 dropped out.
This raises three questions:
  • Will the decline in regular/returning players continue in double digits or stabilise?
  • Will the new players stick with FOG v3?
  • Will FOG v3 continue to attract as many new players?
At this stage of the thread it's worth pointing out that Chris's original post has a direct bearing on the second point and possibly the third.

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:44 pm

vexillia wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:39 pm
This raises three questions:
  • Will the decline in regular/returning players continue in double digits or stabilise?
  • Will the new players stick with FOG v3?
  • Will FOG v3 continue to attract as many new players?
At this stage of the thread it's worth pointing out that Chris's original post has a direct bearing on the second point and possibly the third.
I disagree, I don't think Chris' original post has any bearing on whether new players will stick with FoG v3, that will be down to more practical factors such as:
- What is played at the local club
- How much they have enjoyed the competition

If a player has good games they are more likely to stick with the ruleset. I've heard people grumbling about where they finish at a comp, but have yet to hear anybody grumble about how many actual points they have.

It should be noted that Chris doesn't go to many competitions, so doesn't speak to the majority of the tournament players, which is essentially what we are talking about here - scoring system in a club game matters not a jot.
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:09 pm

You've spent a lot of time arguing with me over the superiority of ADLG over FOG on various online sites, Tim. Why are you so fervently opposing my ideas to improve the FOG scene now? However:
I'm not sure there's a case for polling people who haven't ever played V3 in an event.
Why not? They've obviously had some sort of interest in the rules and simply excluding them won't help those who do want to see FOG succeed.
So, in all practical terms, the idea of emailing everyone who's played V3 is simply impossible.
Impossible?! In this day and age of instantaneous communications such a task is far from impossible - for those who want to see FOG succeed.

Perhaps we need a FOG-AM players' association to oversee such things as scoring, comp rules, handicaps and, above all, the promotion of and future success of FOG.
I'm still struggling to see why putting a poll on the official forum for the FoG community could be argued not to be the best possible way of consulting the widest possible group of interested players?
Posting ideas on a forum isn't the way to reach as many people as possible. Unless you scan the pages on a daily basis it's quite possible to miss things. E-mailing would be a far more effective way of keeping players updated. And at the moment we're only talking about sixty-odd players.
The rate of decline in FoGAM numbers has if anything slowed a little since V3 came out (and the new scoring system was adopted at a few - but not all of - the events). From Jan-July last year there were 72 players who entered events, and this year the total is 53. The main difference comes in the loss of the Scottish players many of whom who only took part in Schiltron, which has now gone from the FoG Circuit. This took 12 players with it out of the rankings. There have also been so far this year 9 "new" players who have entered a V3 event but didn't appear in the rankings last year at all, which is more "new" players than FoG has seen for several years.
Great news! If we can find some way of spreading the good news about Version 3 to the eighty-odd players who have dropped out since early 2016 we might make even more headway. Incidentally, from that 2016 ranking table, no fewer than 77% from the bottom half no longer compete in FOG comps. That's almost four out of five and an indication of how poorly we consider the needs of newer and less experienced players. Seems to be a case of trample on them rather than encourage which, in the long run, is in nobody's interests. Newbies and the less experienced should get a 100 point bonus as a matter of course. It will give them some sort of a fighting chance and might even lead to more exciting games.

If FOG can be the first to introduce such a feature it might actually bring some of those lost players back - and help keep those recent additions. Are we brave enough to lead the way?

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by madaxeman » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:34 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:09 pm
So, in all practical terms, the idea of emailing everyone who's played V3 is simply impossible.
Impossible?! In this day and age of instantaneous communications such a task is far from impossible
Let me rephrase. "It would be illegal under GPPR for the organisers of these 8 events to pass the contact details of the individuals who entered them onto someone else for use in a FoG players email list".
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 am

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:09 pm
Great news! If we can find some way of spreading the good news about Version 3 to the eighty-odd players who have dropped out since early 2016 we might make even more headway. Incidentally, from that 2016 ranking table, no fewer than 77% from the bottom half no longer compete in FOG comps. That's almost four out of five and an indication of how poorly we consider the needs of newer and less experienced players. Seems to be a case of trample on them rather than encourage which, in the long run, is in nobody's interests. Newbies and the less experienced should get a 100 point bonus as a matter of course. It will give them some sort of a fighting chance and might even lead to more exciting games.

If FOG can be the first to introduce such a feature it might actually bring some of those lost players back - and help keep those recent additions. Are we brave enough to lead the way?
You are making huge assumptions about why people are not playing FoG. You seem to think that it is new or less experienced players that drop out - in fact, it's much more likely to be the more experienced players who drop out and as I've mentioned above, thats not because they aren't getting any points that's probably because they are getting trashed four times. Even if you give somebody more points at the start that won't change this.

In fact, it will make it much worse, because the worst players will end up with an artificial points boost that will then make sure they play the best players and get utterly thrashed because of the Swiss Chess system we use for determining who plays who.

You must accept that all rules are fluid and that rulesets come and go, it is unlikely that the new version of FoG will have masses of players joining to play as it is a mature ruleset that is ten years old. How long did DBM last?

MeG has not attracted many FoG players - this seems to be the FoG(R) and FoW crowd who are playing this game. ADLG has attracted the players who prefer DBM and most other players are playing FoG.

Most other countries seem to have pretty much adopted ADLG - USA, Ireland, Italy, Spain, but we are working on the French and Germans to see if we can get them to move to v3. The Germans are currently playing FoG v2.

We could introduce a handicap system, but that might put off a lot more people than it will attract. Remember, we don't want to do a "Flames of War" and annoy all the loyal players in a bid to attract a new audience and end up completely killing the entire ruleset - do we?
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by vexillia » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:16 am

dave_r wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 am
You are making huge assumptions about why people are not playing FoG.
Careful because ...
dave_r wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 am
MeG has not attracted many FoG players - this seems to be the FoG(R) and FoW crowd who are playing this game. ADLG has attracted the players who prefer DBM and most other players are playing FoG.
Pot & kettle?

Here's some recent data on what ADLG players used to play from my 2018 survey:

Image

It's worth noting that the question asked was "I used to play or still play ..." so the answers to this question give a combined view of player's rules history as well as what they play alongside ADLG. The DBM score is therefore unsurprising given the age of the respondents. In the context of this discussion the FOG numbers are of particular relevance. See sections 1.1 & 1.5 for more details.

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:56 am

vexillia wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:16 am
dave_r wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 am
You are making huge assumptions about why people are not playing FoG.
Careful because ...
dave_r wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 am
MeG has not attracted many FoG players - this seems to be the FoG(R) and FoW crowd who are playing this game. ADLG has attracted the players who prefer DBM and most other players are playing FoG.
Pot & kettle?
I'm not making assumptions, I'm looking at who is actually playing the game.
Here's some recent data on what ADLG players used to play from my 2018 survey:

Image

It's worth noting that the question asked was "I used to play or still play ..." so the answers to this question give a combined view of player's rules history as well as what they play alongside ADLG. The DBM score is therefore unsurprising given the age of the respondents. In the context of this discussion the FOG numbers are of particular relevance. See sections 1.1 & 1.5 for more details.
All of that backs up what I said above.
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vexillia

Re: The new scoring system...

Post by vexillia » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:09 am

dave_r wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:56 am
I'm not making assumptions, I'm looking at who is actually playing the game.
Care to share the data and your analysis?

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:25 am

Tournament results. When I'm playing at a tournament I look at who is actually playing what.

I also ask people about what they think whilst I'm there.
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by madaxeman » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:05 am

Of the 55 people who have played MeG at a UK event this year;
- 34 of them also have appeared in the FoG rankings at some point in time/history.
However, only 9 of them have appeared in a FoG event that has taken place since January 2017 - and of these 9, 2 still actively play both systems.
13 of the current MeG players I can also recognise as being former FoGR players, but this isn't as accurate as the numbers above.
19 of the 55 current MeG players don't appear to have played either FoGR or FoG AM before.

Of the 40-odd FoGAM players who appeared at an event in 2017 but have yet to play FoG v3 in 2018, around 20 of them now appear in the ADLG rankings.

Whether any of this is to do with the number of points you get when losing a game is however more difficult to say...
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:16 am

You are making huge assumptions about why people are not playing FoG. You seem to think that it is new or less experienced players that drop out - in fact, it's much more likely to be the more experienced players who drop out and as I've mentioned above, thats not because they aren't getting any points that's probably because they are getting trashed four times. Even if you give somebody more points at the start that won't change this.
I've based my assumptions, which I consider far from huge, on ranking figures obtained on the BHGS website. There were 140 players listed at the start of 2016. 64% of the top 50 are still listed as playing. From the bottom half of the table only 23% are still listed. That's almost four out of five dropping out and a massive loss to the game. I think there's more than a reasonable chance habitually being slaughtered contributed to these losses.

We need to consider the needs of newbies and the less experienced if we want to reverse that trend. Treating them as cannon fodder isn't going to help...

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:25 am

I see the timeline of "player movement" as follows:

When DBM ruled, you had to play DBM - there was no other game in town. Even if you didn't particularly like it (and many didn't).
Then FoG and DBMM were released at around the same time in 2008. Most DBM players moved to FoG, some stayed with DBM. The DBMM crowd were a new bunch - apart from the Bog Trotters and Italians who moved to DBMM from DBM.
Some people didn't like unit based games or they didn't like the lack of technical finesse (or nit picking as some described it), so moved to Flames of War, which was more akin to DBM
Then ADLG was release, which is a mish-mash of FoG and DBM. The people who didn't really like FoG then moved to ADLG as it was a bit different but recognisable
Meg was released, which drew people from a variety of places
Flames of War spectacularly imploded and the majority of FoW players have seemingly moved to MeG

Geographical distribution is relevant, if you want to play ADLG you can't at MAWS, if you want to play FoG you can't at Central London.
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