Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

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ElLobo
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by ElLobo » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:21 am

Folklore wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:30 am
DMcCooey206 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:35 pm
I'm actually still looking for the player that like this scoring system?
The scoring system is pretty good for this kind of game. It's just the early victory problem that they refuse to fix.
Bagatrix1805 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:30 pm
So why when i now check the score it shows he has a better score?
Can some one please suggest what happened, or better still the organiser
The remaining points for winning early are not added. That is what we were talking about in recent posts.
But thats not a secrete, a lot player were complaining about this problem in the erlier tournaments!!! And i need to say it was the most people were complaining about, beside that that others do not play or that it is complicated to communicated with your opponent!!!
But there is still time to fix it and make this a great tournament!!!

Well i hope that it is possible i do not know anything about this kind of "programming" things, i need to say honest!!!

Lets be a bit patient,...and be positive!!!

AlbertoC
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by AlbertoC » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:29 am

Bagatrix1805 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:30 pm
I am confused again by the scoring, ok so i had a great game against a very good opponent, we both scored very similar, I was leading in the scores overall until the last turns, here is from my perspective what happened and i would love an explanation.
on turn 12 me as the Germans had finally eliminated all opposition units and captured the objectives, my opponent as the Germans on turn 15 was unable to capture the last objective and i still had 1 unit left.
now as i had killed all the Polish troops and captured all by turn 12 and i was told German victory followed by me also get a win as the poles, and yet he overtook my score on the final turns even though I held the objectives for a longer period and we both killed all (in my case) and all but one for my opponent.
So why when i now check the score it shows he has a better score?
Can some one please suggest what happened, or better still the organiser
Thanks for letting us know, we'll talk with the devs and discuss this internally. We'll get back to you with a reply.

urbanov4
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by urbanov4 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:49 am

I cant understand why not swiss system. This way, wins never will be counted corretly: 1 The poor chap, whose opponent gave it up at day one, is missed the chance to win with his 2000 points, while we can see, it is possible to get more than 2500. He had no chance to play just was decided, he is not allowed to be a winner.In fact, he has a good chance for a very bad position with that 2000 points. (as in last tournament I won my all games fast and got some 30th-40th posiotion in spite of I could have beeen even the 1st with my performance.) 2. The other poor guy, who is maybe the strongest player from all, and played against the 2nd best will get less score than the mediocre one, who played against a noob and won very easily,by killing his all units and getting his cities easily and fast (supposing that the early victory bug will be solved at all). So, the winner will be again the lucky one, who had weak opponents, who didnt gave it up too early.....

Lifever
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Lifever » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:03 pm

urbanov4 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:49 am
I cant understand why not swiss system.
It's not against or pro swiss system.

3 issues:

1) SCORING SYS FORFEIT / NO SHOW

The 2000 point dilemma that you described, which is a penalty for top players (in the early stages where swiss sys does not take effect in matchmaking) and an unfair advantage for the hard fighting pack alike.

The best solution (A) would be - in case of forfeit at the start - to match the player who is willing to compete with another one whose opponent bailed out.
So no sitting on the sideline. Promise and expectations met!

Now what happens if the number of players is uneven?

It is a complicated matter. Even a matter that could be used or abused by cunning, organized players (prevent player from netting points if defeat is inevitable to take him out of the equation).
This will happen down the line once the field clears up...

If player count uneven or solution (A) is too much effort or infeasible entirely:

WEIGH the rest of the score to fit those players who played all rounds until the end.

Example:

Unfortunate player has 2 opponents bailing on him.

He played therefore 10 rounds out of 12
NET SCORE is those 10 rounds added up - still missing 2 rounds

TOTAL SCORE WEIGHED = NET SCORE / 10 rounds * 12

His total score is therefor adjusted relative to his overall performance in the rest of the games

Simple - effective - fair

If you want that player in the correct position on the scoreboard throughout the tourney, adjust the formula to fit the number of turns played.
It takes 2mins max in excel - easy fix.

---

2) SCORING SYS EARLY FINISH

Essentially a BUG in the scoring system: a dominant early finish is a penalty, as points are not counted as if the match went full distance.

Meaning: An early winner loses against a weak showing on the scoreboard, because he finished faster and could not farm as many points.

---

3) COMMUNICATION

Key factor to avoid frustration and downtime.

One player adjusts his schedule, but there is no way for his opponent to tell him "I am on vacation this week. Is it ok to start Saturday?"

To expect this happens by going the copy/pasty route via forum and hope for a reply is beyond wishful. So frustration is certain - it's basically a set date falling through for the party that was well organized, willing & able to compete.

If this does not work, it has to be within the rules of the tourney to inform the other player within x days when you will be ready and such. (forum, Slitherine sys route)

urbanov4
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by urbanov4 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:28 pm

I think this point system will never be correct. There can be methods to make it more accurate, but in taut situations, 1 point also can be enough to decide, who is the winner. I think, there's is no other way, than pairing the winners and counting only wins/losses. It can make clear between similarly strong players, who is better (at least in this tournament), and not that 1(or more) pont will decide it, which I got against a weak player (or against a strong player, who accidentally made a mistake) some games ago.

Lifever
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Lifever » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:11 pm

urbanov4 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:28 pm
I think this point system will never be correct. There can be methods to make it more accurate, but in taut situations, 1 point also can be enough to decide, who is the winner. I think, there's is no other way, than pairing the winners and counting only wins/losses. It can make clear between similarly strong players, who is better (at least in this tournament), and not that 1(or more) pont will decide it, which I got against a weak player (or against a strong player, who accidentally made a mistake) some games ago.
Agreed.
I would make it simple w/l if it would be an executive decision (only find pairings based on the (weighed) results after w/l).

But finding solutions that don't render entire systems obsolete makes people happy in general - which led to the easy fix proposal above.
Let's see what happens.

urbanov4
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by urbanov4 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:51 pm

I hope some good will :) It's a bit frustrating that, years ago, one man could organize a totally corretc tournament by swiss system in PZC1. It was clear and exciting till the last turn. And now, with modern softwares, seems not possible that achievement :)

ElLobo
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by ElLobo » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:50 pm

urbanov4 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:51 pm
I hope some good will :) It's a bit frustrating that, years ago, one man could organize a totally corretc tournament by swiss system in PZC1. It was clear and exciting till the last turn. And now, with modern softwares, seems not possible that achievement :)
Modernizing things does not mean that you make things simpler,....

:cry:

But i share your positive thinking!!! :D

Lifever
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Lifever » Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 am

Some seasoned players told me, classic swiss sys with w/l ratio is better.

Their take:
It is a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP tournament after all, not a triplet of matches with an overall score!

I didn't really see the difference, but thought about it.
Wandering the Bavarian Alps this hazy morning I realized: They are right. It is a good argument once you think about it.

In detail...

---

NARRATIVE

This is based on my own experience in the last 1y tourney:
The CURRENT scoring system (as good as it may be after getting rid of problems) will count every point from round 1.

I started as a Panzer General veteran, but Panzer Corps MP newbie in the 2018 tournament and wanted to see how tough other guys are. I never thought I would even play in the top league.
So although my early results were quite impressive in context and showed strong play, every good play also had at least a minor mistake attached. I attacked as a defender too much and lost str instead of losing nothing. I overextended and had to replace units. Common occurences, but intolerable - it was not the best version of me from the start. Some things were just executed poorly because I did not know the mechanics or messed them up.
I lacked the experience to know what a unit can barely do or barely fails to do. So I had to learn it by trial under fire - the most exciting experience.
I can say even years later that I learned a lot in that tournament and will never regret being a part of it. It contributed to my life - probably more than 5 years of university ever did (ok, economics & statistics was a stupid choice in hindsight - or was it?)

That tournament was real - something that a lot of players shared and agreed on since this one started. They remember it fondly as a great experience.
The competition was real, the organizers love for the materia was real and the feeling was real.

Now with the point based scoring system, I would not have been able to close the gap to elite players. I would not have learned as many lessons.
As a result I would never have won. I would have lacked incentive to go on. I would have quit somewhere in the middle, knowing that I won't make it to the mountain top regardless of the results of the top guys.
I also would never have played them and learned from them!
The incentive of being just one win away from closing the gap... or being "in reach" on the scoreboard motivates to no end.

This is the most important evolution, a learning mind can live through - working and adapting under pressure. You find unique solutions and crawl the extra mile to find them. "How does he do that?" Improving bit by bit, forging your own strategic masterpiece.
I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players who learn on the fly to be out just because one or two early rounds were not played ideal.
A narrow, hard fought battle should not lead to anybody limping through the rest of a year without chance to place top level.

It should be a steep learning curve that rewards incentive and strategic thinking on the fly...
Rewards for learning out of mistakes and chances for redemption next round.
That is a true winner in real life and should be the leading player for the Panzer Corps 2 MP Truppe: The PzC2 World Champion.

Therefore I would argue the best scoring system is the one that keeps players in reach of the top prize.
It means MORE COMPETITION for the top prize for a longer period of time.
A point based scoring system keeps the guys who start great in a league of their own for the rest of the tournament.
It is more fitting for a very professional environment - i.e heavy prizes that reward for the effort of time spent.
Everybody comes in top prepared, there are qualifying rounds, ...
Unfortunately this is not where strategy esports is right now!

= W/L >>> points

---

WHICH CHAMPION?

W/L seems the far better emotional experience, but also the better method to determine a champion.

In other words - what kind of a champion would you salute to?

TYPE A - THE FIGHTER
A guy who beats his opponents as fast and brutal as he possibly can - going for the win, sealing the deal
(vice versa for defence masters: A guy who springs the trap so effectively that the attacker gets bitten in the end.)

OR

TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT
B) A guy who plans his way through the map based on which objectives start to net him points as early as possible


In gameplay both ways are close to each other, but there is a stark difference in detail!

For veterans and seasoned winners it makes little difference. They get paired with the other top guys and duke it out amongst them.

A win is a win...
Look at history and you will see - nobody talks about the details, losses or objectives met.
Win is all that matters.
The world champion should be a guy who won the most battles.
That's the guy I salute in the end.

= W/L >>> points

---

Feel free to digest or disagree

urbanov4
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by urbanov4 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:01 pm

Nice writing. I can totally agree with all.

Lifever wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 am
Some seasoned players told me, classic swiss sys with w/l ratio is better.

Their take:
It is a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP tournament after all, not a triplet of matches with an overall score!

I didn't really see the difference, but thought about it.
Wandering the Bavarian Alps this hazy morning I realized: They are right. It is a good argument once you think about it.

In detail...

---

NARRATIVE

This is based on my own experience in the last 1y tourney:
The CURRENT scoring system (as good as it may be after getting rid of problems) will count every point from round 1.

I started as a Panzer General veteran, but Panzer Corps MP newbie in the 2018 tournament and wanted to see how tough other guys are. I never thought I would even play in the top league.
So although my early results were quite impressive in context and showed strong play, every good play also had at least a minor mistake attached. I attacked as a defender too much and lost str instead of losing nothing. I overextended and had to replace units. Common occurences, but intolerable - it was not the best version of me from the start. Some things were just executed poorly because I did not know the mechanics or messed them up.
I lacked the experience to know what a unit can barely do or barely fails to do. So I had to learn it by trial under fire - the most exciting experience.
I can say even years later that I learned a lot in that tournament and will never regret being a part of it. It contributed to my life - probably more than 5 years of university ever did (ok, economics & statistics was a stupid choice in hindsight - or was it?)

That tournament was real - something that a lot of players shared and agreed on since this one started. They remember it fondly as a great experience.
The competition was real, the organizers love for the materia was real and the feeling was real.

Now with the point based scoring system, I would not have been able to close the gap to elite players. I would not have learned as many lessons.
As a result I would never have won. I would have lacked incentive to go on. I would have quit somewhere in the middle, knowing that I won't make it to the mountain top regardless of the results of the top guys.
I also would never have played them and learned from them!
The incentive of being just one win away from closing the gap... or being "in reach" on the scoreboard motivates to no end.

This is the most important evolution, a learning mind can live through - working and adapting under pressure. You find unique solutions and crawl the extra mile to find them. "How does he do that?" Improving bit by bit, forging your own strategic masterpiece.
I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players who learn on the fly to be out just because one or two early rounds were not played ideal.
A narrow, hard fought battle should not lead to anybody limping through the rest of a year without chance to place top level.

It should be a steep learning curve that rewards incentive and strategic thinking on the fly...
Rewards for learning out of mistakes and chances for redemption next round.
That is a true winner in real life and should be the leading player for the Panzer Corps 2 MP Truppe: The PzC2 World Champion.

Therefore I would argue the best scoring system is the one that keeps players in reach of the top prize.
It means MORE COMPETITION for the top prize for a longer period of time.
A point based scoring system keeps the guys who start great in a league of their own for the rest of the tournament.
It is more fitting for a very professional environment - i.e heavy prizes that reward for the effort of time spent.
Everybody comes in top prepared, there are qualifying rounds, ...
Unfortunately this is not where strategy esports is right now!

= W/L >>> points

---

WHICH CHAMPION?

W/L seems the far better emotional experience, but also the better method to determine a champion.

In other words - what kind of a champion would you salute to?

TYPE A - THE FIGHTER
A guy who beats his opponents as fast and brutal as he possibly can - going for the win, sealing the deal
(vice versa for defence masters: A guy who springs the trap so effectively that the attacker gets bitten in the end.)

OR

TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT
B) A guy who plans his way through the map based on which objectives start to net him points as early as possible


In gameplay both ways are close to each other, but there is a stark difference in detail!

For veterans and seasoned winners it makes little difference. They get paired with the other top guys and duke it out amongst them.

A win is a win...
Look at history and you will see - nobody talks about the details, losses or objectives met.
Win is all that matters.
The world champion should be a guy who won the most battles.
That's the guy I salute in the end.

= W/L >>> points

---

Feel free to digest or disagree

Owi
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Owi » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:00 pm

still waiting for opponent.. why not do a simple 48 hours turn counter? How can i be on top of the tourney if i cant earn points? even if we get a compansate of 500 points i will loose the chance in the first rounds may get a easy opponent and win with maximum point result.

ElLobo
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by ElLobo » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:17 pm

Lifever wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 am
Some seasoned players told me, classic swiss sys with w/l ratio is better.

Their take:
It is a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP tournament after all, not a triplet of matches with an overall score!

I didn't really see the difference, but thought about it.
Wandering the Bavarian Alps this hazy morning I realized: They are right. It is a good argument once you think about it.

In detail...

---

NARRATIVE

This is based on my own experience in the last 1y tourney:
The CURRENT scoring system (as good as it may be after getting rid of problems) will count every point from round 1.

I started as a Panzer General veteran, but Panzer Corps MP newbie in the 2018 tournament and wanted to see how tough other guys are. I never thought I would even play in the top league.
So although my early results were quite impressive in context and showed strong play, every good play also had at least a minor mistake attached. I attacked as a defender too much and lost str instead of losing nothing. I overextended and had to replace units. Common occurences, but intolerable - it was not the best version of me from the start. Some things were just executed poorly because I did not know the mechanics or messed them up.
I lacked the experience to know what a unit can barely do or barely fails to do. So I had to learn it by trial under fire - the most exciting experience.
I can say even years later that I learned a lot in that tournament and will never regret being a part of it. It contributed to my life - probably more than 5 years of university ever did (ok, economics & statistics was a stupid choice in hindsight - or was it?)

That tournament was real - something that a lot of players shared and agreed on since this one started. They remember it fondly as a great experience.
The competition was real, the organizers love for the materia was real and the feeling was real.

Now with the point based scoring system, I would not have been able to close the gap to elite players. I would not have learned as many lessons.
As a result I would never have won. I would have lacked incentive to go on. I would have quit somewhere in the middle, knowing that I won't make it to the mountain top regardless of the results of the top guys.
I also would never have played them and learned from them!
The incentive of being just one win away from closing the gap... or being "in reach" on the scoreboard motivates to no end.

This is the most important evolution, a learning mind can live through - working and adapting under pressure. You find unique solutions and crawl the extra mile to find them. "How does he do that?" Improving bit by bit, forging your own strategic masterpiece.
I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players who learn on the fly to be out just because one or two early rounds were not played ideal.
A narrow, hard fought battle should not lead to anybody limping through the rest of a year without chance to place top level.

It should be a steep learning curve that rewards incentive and strategic thinking on the fly...
Rewards for learning out of mistakes and chances for redemption next round.
That is a true winner in real life and should be the leading player for the Panzer Corps 2 MP Truppe: The PzC2 World Champion.

Therefore I would argue the best scoring system is the one that keeps players in reach of the top prize.
It means MORE COMPETITION for the top prize for a longer period of time.
A point based scoring system keeps the guys who start great in a league of their own for the rest of the tournament.
It is more fitting for a very professional environment - i.e heavy prizes that reward for the effort of time spent.
Everybody comes in top prepared, there are qualifying rounds, ...
Unfortunately this is not where strategy esports is right now!

= W/L >>> points

---

WHICH CHAMPION?

W/L seems the far better emotional experience, but also the better method to determine a champion.

In other words - what kind of a champion would you salute to?

TYPE A - THE FIGHTER
A guy who beats his opponents as fast and brutal as he possibly can - going for the win, sealing the deal
(vice versa for defence masters: A guy who springs the trap so effectively that the attacker gets bitten in the end.)

OR

TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT
B) A guy who plans his way through the map based on which objectives start to net him points as early as possible


In gameplay both ways are close to each other, but there is a stark difference in detail!

For veterans and seasoned winners it makes little difference. They get paired with the other top guys and duke it out amongst them.

A win is a win...
Look at history and you will see - nobody talks about the details, losses or objectives met.
Win is all that matters.
The world champion should be a guy who won the most battles.
That's the guy I salute in the end.

= W/L >>> points

---

Feel free to digest or disagree
Nicely spoken, and deffinitly it is the fighter(like you say)!!!

In Panzer General (yes sir, i´m also an old Veteran) and Panzer Corps 1 was always the best and most effective way in my eyes: no matter of how many troops you lead into battle, only the matter how to use them the best, and be faster than your enemy!!!
Encircle the enemy, and kill them, flank them out to reach the goal,....not always is a clash the best choice(or an elegant one)!!

When studying history i loved the stories about an outnumberd army, that was playing more clever than that big opponent, and of course winning in the end!!!
The history is full of such examples.
I hate it when i need to start killing every unit, conquering every boring village, that is not important but giving points!!!
Panzer Corps 2 has such a nice complexity of playable tricks, that hopefully is not disapering, downgrading it into a boring game like History Line (a game for the WW1, and i fear older than Panzer General)

I love the fast and challanging gameplay of Panzer Corps 2!!!

please do not kill this!!!! change that scoring system!!! It never was important how many units you kill or not,...to reach the clear objectives, that was decisive!!!

W/L >>>> Points!!!!!!

wmac7476
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by wmac7476 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:07 am

Am getting "Bad HTTP request" when I attempt to login the tournament. Please advise.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by DarkBlueInk » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:42 am

That's to protect you from finding out your opponent has quit the tournament before it even started. Log out now before Slitherine tells you Santa Claus isn't real.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Haze0008 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:11 pm

It is mind boggling to me that the creators of this great game can be so completely incompetent at putting a tournament together. It has occurred to me today that I have lost all interest in this circus. I give up. Don’t know who is more stupid; Slitherine or those of us who thought on their THIRD try they might be able to run a tournament.

urbanov4
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by urbanov4 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:22 pm

Haze0008 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:11 pm
It is mind boggling to me that the creators of this great game can be so completely incompetent at putting a tournament together. It has occurred to me today that I have lost all interest in this circus. I give up. Don’t know who is more stupid; Slitherine or those of us who thought on their THIRD try they might be able to run a tournament.
At first they said it will be swiss system this time. But that post saeems was deleted. It is possible yet to change it, points counting method is okay to decide the winner between the two, who plays again each other. Than the winner must get 1 pont, loser 0. There are tables and programs to make pairs, so let's hope they change this system in time.
New multy maps also good if we get them. But if this "system" (=Lottery) remains, no point to play, yes.

Cowboy00
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Cowboy00 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:43 pm

One week, no news. Please brother, I only want to play some turns

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by goose_2 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:04 pm

Lifever wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 am
Some seasoned players told me, classic swiss sys with w/l ratio is better.

Their take:
It is a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP tournament after all, not a triplet of matches with an overall score!

I didn't really see the difference, but thought about it.
Wandering the Bavarian Alps this hazy morning I realized: They are right. It is a good argument once you think about it.

In detail...

---

NARRATIVE

This is based on my own experience in the last 1y tourney:
The CURRENT scoring system (as good as it may be after getting rid of problems) will count every point from round 1.

I started as a Panzer General veteran, but Panzer Corps MP newbie in the 2018 tournament and wanted to see how tough other guys are. I never thought I would even play in the top league.
So although my early results were quite impressive in context and showed strong play, every good play also had at least a minor mistake attached. I attacked as a defender too much and lost str instead of losing nothing. I overextended and had to replace units. Common occurences, but intolerable - it was not the best version of me from the start. Some things were just executed poorly because I did not know the mechanics or messed them up.
I lacked the experience to know what a unit can barely do or barely fails to do. So I had to learn it by trial under fire - the most exciting experience.
I can say even years later that I learned a lot in that tournament and will never regret being a part of it. It contributed to my life - probably more than 5 years of university ever did (ok, economics & statistics was a stupid choice in hindsight - or was it?)

That tournament was real - something that a lot of players shared and agreed on since this one started. They remember it fondly as a great experience.
The competition was real, the organizers love for the materia was real and the feeling was real.

Now with the point based scoring system, I would not have been able to close the gap to elite players. I would not have learned as many lessons.
As a result I would never have won. I would have lacked incentive to go on. I would have quit somewhere in the middle, knowing that I won't make it to the mountain top regardless of the results of the top guys.
I also would never have played them and learned from them!
The incentive of being just one win away from closing the gap... or being "in reach" on the scoreboard motivates to no end.

This is the most important evolution, a learning mind can live through - working and adapting under pressure. You find unique solutions and crawl the extra mile to find them. "How does he do that?" Improving bit by bit, forging your own strategic masterpiece.
I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players who learn on the fly to be out just because one or two early rounds were not played ideal.
A narrow, hard fought battle should not lead to anybody limping through the rest of a year without chance to place top level.

It should be a steep learning curve that rewards incentive and strategic thinking on the fly...
Rewards for learning out of mistakes and chances for redemption next round.
That is a true winner in real life and should be the leading player for the Panzer Corps 2 MP Truppe: The PzC2 World Champion.

Therefore I would argue the best scoring system is the one that keeps players in reach of the top prize.
It means MORE COMPETITION for the top prize for a longer period of time.
A point based scoring system keeps the guys who start great in a league of their own for the rest of the tournament.
It is more fitting for a very professional environment - i.e heavy prizes that reward for the effort of time spent.
Everybody comes in top prepared, there are qualifying rounds, ...
Unfortunately this is not where strategy esports is right now!

= W/L >>> points

---

WHICH CHAMPION?

W/L seems the far better emotional experience, but also the better method to determine a champion.

In other words - what kind of a champion would you salute to?

TYPE A - THE FIGHTER
A guy who beats his opponents as fast and brutal as he possibly can - going for the win, sealing the deal
(vice versa for defence masters: A guy who springs the trap so effectively that the attacker gets bitten in the end.)

OR

TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT
B) A guy who plans his way through the map based on which objectives start to net him points as early as possible


In gameplay both ways are close to each other, but there is a stark difference in detail!

For veterans and seasoned winners it makes little difference. They get paired with the other top guys and duke it out amongst them.

A win is a win...
Look at history and you will see - nobody talks about the details, losses or objectives met.
Win is all that matters.
The world champion should be a guy who won the most battles.
That's the guy I salute in the end.

= W/L >>> points

---



Feel free to digest or disagree
So glad my buddy and winner from the best tournament in Slitherine history shared his thoughts and experience on my labor of love that was the 2018 Tournament. That was so much fun/pain. I am elated that it had this effect on the winner. That was my wish for putting it on. To bring attention to the best game in the world.

Panzer Corps Forever
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

SiberianStorm
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:41 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by SiberianStorm » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:38 pm

I hope you realize there is no way back now, after this post you “have to” organize a new tournament

:wink: :lol:
goose_2 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:04 pm
Lifever wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 am
Some seasoned players told me, classic swiss sys with w/l ratio is better.

Their take:
It is a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP tournament after all, not a triplet of matches with an overall score!

I didn't really see the difference, but thought about it.
Wandering the Bavarian Alps this hazy morning I realized: They are right. It is a good argument once you think about it.

In detail...

---

NARRATIVE

This is based on my own experience in the last 1y tourney:
The CURRENT scoring system (as good as it may be after getting rid of problems) will count every point from round 1.

I started as a Panzer General veteran, but Panzer Corps MP newbie in the 2018 tournament and wanted to see how tough other guys are. I never thought I would even play in the top league.
So although my early results were quite impressive in context and showed strong play, every good play also had at least a minor mistake attached. I attacked as a defender too much and lost str instead of losing nothing. I overextended and had to replace units. Common occurences, but intolerable - it was not the best version of me from the start. Some things were just executed poorly because I did not know the mechanics or messed them up.
I lacked the experience to know what a unit can barely do or barely fails to do. So I had to learn it by trial under fire - the most exciting experience.
I can say even years later that I learned a lot in that tournament and will never regret being a part of it. It contributed to my life - probably more than 5 years of university ever did (ok, economics & statistics was a stupid choice in hindsight - or was it?)

That tournament was real - something that a lot of players shared and agreed on since this one started. They remember it fondly as a great experience.
The competition was real, the organizers love for the materia was real and the feeling was real.

Now with the point based scoring system, I would not have been able to close the gap to elite players. I would not have learned as many lessons.
As a result I would never have won. I would have lacked incentive to go on. I would have quit somewhere in the middle, knowing that I won't make it to the mountain top regardless of the results of the top guys.
I also would never have played them and learned from them!
The incentive of being just one win away from closing the gap... or being "in reach" on the scoreboard motivates to no end.

This is the most important evolution, a learning mind can live through - working and adapting under pressure. You find unique solutions and crawl the extra mile to find them. "How does he do that?" Improving bit by bit, forging your own strategic masterpiece.
I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players who learn on the fly to be out just because one or two early rounds were not played ideal.
A narrow, hard fought battle should not lead to anybody limping through the rest of a year without chance to place top level.

It should be a steep learning curve that rewards incentive and strategic thinking on the fly...
Rewards for learning out of mistakes and chances for redemption next round.
That is a true winner in real life and should be the leading player for the Panzer Corps 2 MP Truppe: The PzC2 World Champion.

Therefore I would argue the best scoring system is the one that keeps players in reach of the top prize.
It means MORE COMPETITION for the top prize for a longer period of time.
A point based scoring system keeps the guys who start great in a league of their own for the rest of the tournament.
It is more fitting for a very professional environment - i.e heavy prizes that reward for the effort of time spent.
Everybody comes in top prepared, there are qualifying rounds, ...
Unfortunately this is not where strategy esports is right now!

= W/L >>> points

---

WHICH CHAMPION?

W/L seems the far better emotional experience, but also the better method to determine a champion.

In other words - what kind of a champion would you salute to?

TYPE A - THE FIGHTER
A guy who beats his opponents as fast and brutal as he possibly can - going for the win, sealing the deal
(vice versa for defence masters: A guy who springs the trap so effectively that the attacker gets bitten in the end.)

OR

TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT
B) A guy who plans his way through the map based on which objectives start to net him points as early as possible


In gameplay both ways are close to each other, but there is a stark difference in detail!

For veterans and seasoned winners it makes little difference. They get paired with the other top guys and duke it out amongst them.

A win is a win...
Look at history and you will see - nobody talks about the details, losses or objectives met.
Win is all that matters.
The world champion should be a guy who won the most battles.
That's the guy I salute in the end.

= W/L >>> points

---



Feel free to digest or disagree
So glad my buddy and winner from the best tournament in Slitherine history shared his thoughts and experience on my labor of love that was the 2018 Tournament. That was so much fun/pain. I am elated that it had this effect on the winner. That was my wish for putting it on. To bring attention to the best game in the world.

Panzer Corps Forever

Lifever
Panzer Corps World Champion
Panzer Corps World Champion
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Lifever » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:17 pm

goose_2 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:04 pm
To bring attention to the best game in the world.
Panzer Corps Forever
Truer words have not been spoken.

When you thought you were out - we pull you back in

We will negotiate the details in private

Dann Bier & Bretzel für alle

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