Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

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urbanov4
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by urbanov4 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 am

So, the Grat Goose2 is still alive! Nice thing, I missed you ( I played 2 tournaments,not won one, but beat you in one match, map was Barbarossa). I hope, you come back to the front some day. Your country needs you! :)
goose_2 wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:04 pm
Lifever wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 am
Some seasoned players told me, classic swiss sys with w/l ratio is better.

Their take:
It is a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP tournament after all, not a triplet of matches with an overall score!

I didn't really see the difference, but thought about it.
Wandering the Bavarian Alps this hazy morning I realized: They are right. It is a good argument once you think about it.

In detail...

---

NARRATIVE

This is based on my own experience in the last 1y tourney:
The CURRENT scoring system (as good as it may be after getting rid of problems) will count every point from round 1.

I started as a Panzer General veteran, but Panzer Corps MP newbie in the 2018 tournament and wanted to see how tough other guys are. I never thought I would even play in the top league.
So although my early results were quite impressive in context and showed strong play, every good play also had at least a minor mistake attached. I attacked as a defender too much and lost str instead of losing nothing. I overextended and had to replace units. Common occurences, but intolerable - it was not the best version of me from the start. Some things were just executed poorly because I did not know the mechanics or messed them up.
I lacked the experience to know what a unit can barely do or barely fails to do. So I had to learn it by trial under fire - the most exciting experience.
I can say even years later that I learned a lot in that tournament and will never regret being a part of it. It contributed to my life - probably more than 5 years of university ever did (ok, economics & statistics was a stupid choice in hindsight - or was it?)

That tournament was real - something that a lot of players shared and agreed on since this one started. They remember it fondly as a great experience.
The competition was real, the organizers love for the materia was real and the feeling was real.

Now with the point based scoring system, I would not have been able to close the gap to elite players. I would not have learned as many lessons.
As a result I would never have won. I would have lacked incentive to go on. I would have quit somewhere in the middle, knowing that I won't make it to the mountain top regardless of the results of the top guys.
I also would never have played them and learned from them!
The incentive of being just one win away from closing the gap... or being "in reach" on the scoreboard motivates to no end.

This is the most important evolution, a learning mind can live through - working and adapting under pressure. You find unique solutions and crawl the extra mile to find them. "How does he do that?" Improving bit by bit, forging your own strategic masterpiece.
I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players who learn on the fly to be out just because one or two early rounds were not played ideal.
A narrow, hard fought battle should not lead to anybody limping through the rest of a year without chance to place top level.

It should be a steep learning curve that rewards incentive and strategic thinking on the fly...
Rewards for learning out of mistakes and chances for redemption next round.
That is a true winner in real life and should be the leading player for the Panzer Corps 2 MP Truppe: The PzC2 World Champion.

Therefore I would argue the best scoring system is the one that keeps players in reach of the top prize.
It means MORE COMPETITION for the top prize for a longer period of time.
A point based scoring system keeps the guys who start great in a league of their own for the rest of the tournament.
It is more fitting for a very professional environment - i.e heavy prizes that reward for the effort of time spent.
Everybody comes in top prepared, there are qualifying rounds, ...
Unfortunately this is not where strategy esports is right now!

= W/L >>> points

---

WHICH CHAMPION?

W/L seems the far better emotional experience, but also the better method to determine a champion.

In other words - what kind of a champion would you salute to?

TYPE A - THE FIGHTER
A guy who beats his opponents as fast and brutal as he possibly can - going for the win, sealing the deal
(vice versa for defence masters: A guy who springs the trap so effectively that the attacker gets bitten in the end.)

OR

TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT
B) A guy who plans his way through the map based on which objectives start to net him points as early as possible


In gameplay both ways are close to each other, but there is a stark difference in detail!

For veterans and seasoned winners it makes little difference. They get paired with the other top guys and duke it out amongst them.

A win is a win...
Look at history and you will see - nobody talks about the details, losses or objectives met.
Win is all that matters.
The world champion should be a guy who won the most battles.
That's the guy I salute in the end.

= W/L >>> points

---



Feel free to digest or disagree
So glad my buddy and winner from the best tournament in Slitherine history shared his thoughts and experience on my labor of love that was the 2018 Tournament. That was so much fun/pain. I am elated that it had this effect on the winner. That was my wish for putting it on. To bring attention to the best game in the world.

Panzer Corps Forever

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
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Contact:

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by goose_2 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:40 pm

urbanov4 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 am
So, the Grat Goose2 is still alive! Nice thing, I missed you ( I played 2 tournaments,not won one, but beat you in one match, map was Barbarossa). I hope, you come back to the front some day. Your country needs you! :)

Go? I have been on the forum and on youtube putting up new vids almost every day.

I am considering possibly holding another tournament...but still am not completely sold on it.

I love my wife and family. ;)
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

kleko11
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Posts: 4
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by kleko11 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:33 pm

I feel personally called out by "TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT" player type. That's my 2nd tournament and learning from the past, I assumed scoring is still broken and planned accordingly. I agree with what you have written, however for a time being most logical solution will be to adjust how we play further tournament games to WWI style :)
Lifever wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 am
Some seasoned players told me, classic swiss sys with w/l ratio is better.

Their take:
It is a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP tournament after all, not a triplet of matches with an overall score!

I didn't really see the difference, but thought about it.
Wandering the Bavarian Alps this hazy morning I realized: They are right. It is a good argument once you think about it.

In detail...

---

NARRATIVE

This is based on my own experience in the last 1y tourney:
The CURRENT scoring system (as good as it may be after getting rid of problems) will count every point from round 1.

I started as a Panzer General veteran, but Panzer Corps MP newbie in the 2018 tournament and wanted to see how tough other guys are. I never thought I would even play in the top league.
So although my early results were quite impressive in context and showed strong play, every good play also had at least a minor mistake attached. I attacked as a defender too much and lost str instead of losing nothing. I overextended and had to replace units. Common occurences, but intolerable - it was not the best version of me from the start. Some things were just executed poorly because I did not know the mechanics or messed them up.
I lacked the experience to know what a unit can barely do or barely fails to do. So I had to learn it by trial under fire - the most exciting experience.
I can say even years later that I learned a lot in that tournament and will never regret being a part of it. It contributed to my life - probably more than 5 years of university ever did (ok, economics & statistics was a stupid choice in hindsight - or was it?)

That tournament was real - something that a lot of players shared and agreed on since this one started. They remember it fondly as a great experience.
The competition was real, the organizers love for the materia was real and the feeling was real.

Now with the point based scoring system, I would not have been able to close the gap to elite players. I would not have learned as many lessons.
As a result I would never have won. I would have lacked incentive to go on. I would have quit somewhere in the middle, knowing that I won't make it to the mountain top regardless of the results of the top guys.
I also would never have played them and learned from them!
The incentive of being just one win away from closing the gap... or being "in reach" on the scoreboard motivates to no end.

This is the most important evolution, a learning mind can live through - working and adapting under pressure. You find unique solutions and crawl the extra mile to find them. "How does he do that?" Improving bit by bit, forging your own strategic masterpiece.
I think it would be frustrating for a lot of players who learn on the fly to be out just because one or two early rounds were not played ideal.
A narrow, hard fought battle should not lead to anybody limping through the rest of a year without chance to place top level.

It should be a steep learning curve that rewards incentive and strategic thinking on the fly...
Rewards for learning out of mistakes and chances for redemption next round.
That is a true winner in real life and should be the leading player for the Panzer Corps 2 MP Truppe: The PzC2 World Champion.

Therefore I would argue the best scoring system is the one that keeps players in reach of the top prize.
It means MORE COMPETITION for the top prize for a longer period of time.
A point based scoring system keeps the guys who start great in a league of their own for the rest of the tournament.
It is more fitting for a very professional environment - i.e heavy prizes that reward for the effort of time spent.
Everybody comes in top prepared, there are qualifying rounds, ...
Unfortunately this is not where strategy esports is right now!

= W/L >>> points

---

WHICH CHAMPION?

W/L seems the far better emotional experience, but also the better method to determine a champion.

In other words - what kind of a champion would you salute to?

TYPE A - THE FIGHTER
A guy who beats his opponents as fast and brutal as he possibly can - going for the win, sealing the deal
(vice versa for defence masters: A guy who springs the trap so effectively that the attacker gets bitten in the end.)

OR

TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT
B) A guy who plans his way through the map based on which objectives start to net him points as early as possible


In gameplay both ways are close to each other, but there is a stark difference in detail!

For veterans and seasoned winners it makes little difference. They get paired with the other top guys and duke it out amongst them.

A win is a win...
Look at history and you will see - nobody talks about the details, losses or objectives met.
Win is all that matters.
The world champion should be a guy who won the most battles.
That's the guy I salute in the end.

= W/L >>> points

---

Feel free to digest or disagree

Lifever
Panzer Corps World Champion
Panzer Corps World Champion
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Lifever » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:03 pm

kleko11 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:33 pm
I feel personally called out by "TYPE B - THE ACCOUNTANT" player type. That's my 2nd tournament and learning from the past, I assumed scoring is still broken and planned accordingly. I agree with what you have written, however for a time being most logical solution will be to adjust how we play further tournament games to WWI style :)
"Planned accordingly" - Felt the disturbance: 2891 !

Estimated 2700 could be achieveable with a tough opponent (losing as polish, but slow, no major surrender-mistakes on axis side - those cost him dearly)
You ragdolled that poor guy to a level the game showed mercy and crippled your movement to zero

Image

Now you owe us the story of your win - congratulations

---

What you say is 100% sense.
It would be a major mistake to adjust your playstyle. You have to assume right now that this is how it is scored

Keen
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Keen » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:34 pm

goose_2 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:40 pm

I am considering possibly holding another tournament...but still am not completely sold on it.

I love my wife and family. ;)
Hi!
Hope you will organize one more PC1 tournament. ))
I was not be able to play previous tournaments, so that sound very interesting.

kleko11
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:48 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by kleko11 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:48 pm

Lifever wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Estimated 2700 could be achieveable with a tough opponent (losing as polish, but slow, no major surrender-mistakes on axis side - those cost him dearly)
You ragdolled that poor guy to a level the game showed mercy and crippled your movement to zero

Now you owe us the story of your win - congratulations

---

What you say is 100% sense.
It would be a major mistake to adjust your playstyle. You have to assume right now that this is how it is scored
Well, my strategy was nothing revolutionary, it was a risky bet to be fair. And I did get lucky that my opponent was a less experienced one. Still kudos to fginfo for trying till the end!
I got lucky that my 15-strength polish fighters were somehow able to suppress the german airforce, so I was not bombed to hell. I had a fairly strong defense in Bialystok and Warsaw where I anticipated the initial push. While in the nearby Brest area were my tanks waiting for the right moment, as soon as my opponent dispersed his force, I attacked between Bug and Narew keeping close formation to allow for air cover. I tried to surrender units if possible by pushing them into a river (to get some crucial prestige) and if not possible I did not destroy them completely to make it more difficult to buy new full-strength units. Bleed out Germans from prestige, while I kept ferrying my own units by train from Warsaw to Brest to disbanded them, which allowed me to keep replacing losses where needed. Also, I did not have many support/artillery units. I guess that my troop got a morale boost from shared nationality with their commander, but it does not explain good performance on the German side, does it :)

What do you guys think we will get in the next round? My bet is on the Paris map from the main campaign.

ElLobo
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:58 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by ElLobo » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:10 am

kleko11 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:48 pm
Lifever wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Estimated 2700 could be achieveable with a tough opponent (losing as polish, but slow, no major surrender-mistakes on axis side - those cost him dearly)
You ragdolled that poor guy to a level the game showed mercy and crippled your movement to zero

Now you owe us the story of your win - congratulations

---

What you say is 100% sense.
It would be a major mistake to adjust your playstyle. You have to assume right now that this is how it is scored
Well, my strategy was nothing revolutionary, it was a risky bet to be fair. And I did get lucky that my opponent was a less experienced one. Still kudos to fginfo for trying till the end!
I got lucky that my 15-strength polish fighters were somehow able to suppress the german airforce, so I was not bombed to hell. I had a fairly strong defense in Bialystok and Warsaw where I anticipated the initial push. While in the nearby Brest area were my tanks waiting for the right moment, as soon as my opponent dispersed his force, I attacked between Bug and Narew keeping close formation to allow for air cover. I tried to surrender units if possible by pushing them into a river (to get some crucial prestige) and if not possible I did not destroy them completely to make it more difficult to buy new full-strength units. Bleed out Germans from prestige, while I kept ferrying my own units by train from Warsaw to Brest to disbanded them, which allowed me to keep replacing losses where needed. Also, I did not have many support/artillery units. I guess that my troop got a morale boost from shared nationality with their commander, but it does not explain good performance on the German side, does it :)

What do you guys think we will get in the next round? My bet is on the Paris map from the main campaign.

Next round? I would love to play the first one!!!
Opponent is not playing....is very disappointing!!! :(

But yes, the second musst be better!!!!

AlbertoC
Slitherine
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by AlbertoC » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:45 am

We're currently discussing scoring, it takes a while but hopefully we'll get back to you with an answer soon

ElLobo
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by ElLobo » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:37 am

AlbertoC wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:45 am
We're currently discussing scoring, it takes a while but hopefully we'll get back to you with an answer soon
Good things always need time!!! Thanks for telling!!! :)

Owi
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Owi » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:52 am



Next round? I would love to play the first one!!!
Opponent is not playing....is very disappointing!!! :(

But yes, the second musst be better!!!!
Same here. Next round will be better because inactive players are out hopefully.
Men i log in every day only to get dissapointed.

nutoha
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by nutoha » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:55 pm

Hello, to all the active players in the touranament. The current point system is awfull ("atrocious"was the used word from mine in game friend). Its humiliating for the weaker player to be "milked", and its not fun for the winning player either!

Lifever
Panzer Corps World Champion
Panzer Corps World Champion
Posts: 153
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Lifever » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:07 am

kleko11 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:48 pm
Well, my strategy was nothing revolutionary, it was a risky bet to be fair. And I did get lucky that my opponent was a less experienced one. Still kudos to fginfo for trying till the end!
I got lucky that my 15-strength polish fighters were somehow able to suppress the german airforce, so I was not bombed to hell. I had a fairly strong defense in Bialystok and Warsaw where I anticipated the initial push. While in the nearby Brest area were my tanks waiting for the right moment, as soon as my opponent dispersed his force, I attacked between Bug and Narew keeping close formation to allow for air cover. I tried to surrender units if possible by pushing them into a river (to get some crucial prestige) and if not possible I did not destroy them completely to make it more difficult to buy new full-strength units. Bleed out Germans from prestige, while I kept ferrying my own units by train from Warsaw to Brest to disbanded them, which allowed me to keep replacing losses where needed. Also, I did not have many support/artillery units. I guess that my troop got a morale boost from shared nationality with their commander, but it does not explain good performance on the German side, does it :)
This is why it is important to exchance experience amongst smart people/players.

Selling units that have lost their edge on the battlefield is very important. Never thought of it - officially my troops have to pay the ultimate price for their failure! ;)
But with overrun this is pretty ineffective. They lose their roadblock function too easy when they are down on str, so selling is the only valid option - to power up weak troops again.

Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to future reports of your exploits

---
kleko11 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:48 pm
What do you guys think we will get in the next round? My bet is on the Paris map from the main campaign.
I hope for something in between Poland and Paris.
Half the game / campaign is German victory ... until the final turning point in Stalingrad historically
So a "perfect" Panzer Corps Tournament to me would cover all the bases and tell a complete picture of the war

tkrysiak
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by tkrysiak » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:35 pm

Lifever wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:07 am
kleko11 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:48 pm
Well, my strategy was nothing revolutionary, it was a risky bet to be fair. And I did get lucky that my opponent was a less experienced one. Still kudos to fginfo for trying till the end!
I got lucky that my 15-strength polish fighters were somehow able to suppress the german airforce, so I was not bombed to hell. I had a fairly strong defense in Bialystok and Warsaw where I anticipated the initial push. While in the nearby Brest area were my tanks waiting for the right moment, as soon as my opponent dispersed his force, I attacked between Bug and Narew keeping close formation to allow for air cover. I tried to surrender units if possible by pushing them into a river (to get some crucial prestige) and if not possible I did not destroy them completely to make it more difficult to buy new full-strength units. Bleed out Germans from prestige, while I kept ferrying my own units by train from Warsaw to Brest to disbanded them, which allowed me to keep replacing losses where needed. Also, I did not have many support/artillery units. I guess that my troop got a morale boost from shared nationality with their commander, but it does not explain good performance on the German side, does it :)
This is why it is important to exchance experience amongst smart people/players.

Selling units that have lost their edge on the battlefield is very important. Never thought of it - officially my troops have to pay the ultimate price for their failure! ;)
But with overrun this is pretty ineffective. They lose their roadblock function too easy when they are down on str, so selling is the only valid option - to power up weak troops again.

Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to future reports of your exploits

---
kleko11 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:48 pm
What do you guys think we will get in the next round? My bet is on the Paris map from the main campaign.
I hope for something in between Poland and Paris.
Half the game / campaign is German victory ... until the final turning point in Stalingrad historically
So a "perfect" Panzer Corps Tournament to me would cover all the bases and tell a complete picture of the war
I totally agree - I hope there will be something between Poland and France. Norwegian scenarios were a bit linear(not that they weren't fun) but maybe Eben Emael or Albert Canal?

StahlRat
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by StahlRat » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:41 am

Have not heard from my opponent for 5 days already. I think PBEM++ requires some sort of timers.

The 1st round should start in X days.
If the game's started then no more then X hours for turn.

Whoever fails gets N negative points.

Maybe harsh but not to people who really want to play.

ElLobo
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by ElLobo » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:03 am

StahlRat wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:41 am
Have not heard from my opponent for 5 days already. I think PBEM++ requires some sort of timers.

The 1st round should start in X days.
If the game's started then no more then X hours for turn.

Whoever fails gets N negative points.

Maybe harsh but not to people who really want to play.
You´re not alone waiting, i guess there are a lot players waiting for ghosts retuning to play!!!
Is sad, because the map looks really intressting, but we can´t play it, but the next round i´m sure!!!
And after the first round all the ghosts, will have been sorted out!!!

And i´m not anymore hoping she/he turns up playing, i hope he stays out now!!! nearly no more time left to play !!!
So if reads this,...please quit!!!

SiberianStorm
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by SiberianStorm » Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:59 pm

Did anyone get any feedback from the developers/producers/tournament organizers about the scoring and other WC2021 questions, on any channel?
I see there has been no update here but am not sure what is the preferred communication channel for the providers.

Regardless, I look forward to the second round and getting the first map listed for MP games. 😁🕺🏼
Good luck everyone and have fun!

StuG_Tutor
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by StuG_Tutor » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:55 pm

If the players who showed up for only a few rounds are still included in the tournament could we please partition them into a "Procrastinator's Bracket" so they can just all play one another and those of us who are more focused can get on with it?

Lifever
Panzer Corps World Champion
Panzer Corps World Champion
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Lifever » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:42 pm

SiberianStorm wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:59 pm
Did anyone get any feedback from the developers/producers/tournament organizers about the scoring and other WC2021 questions, on any channel?
I see there has been no update here but am not sure what is the preferred communication channel for the providers.

Regardless, I look forward to the second round and getting the first map listed for MP games. 😁🕺🏼
Good luck everyone and have fun!
I can confirm feedback via direct contact.
They are working on a solution - I took some time to giving my feedback directly bc I am still torn between solutions myself.

It is always easy to say "skip the current sys entirely" but this is rarely the solution that is accepted.
There is something happening though.

Vindictus
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by Vindictus » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:31 am

I received 2000 points for my forfeit, and consider that a fair total.

I wonder what would have happened if my opponent logged in with 5 days to go, and only completed 5 rounds? Glad I got a full forfeit TBH

SteelTiger007
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - 2021 World Championship Begins

Post by SteelTiger007 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:35 pm

if wins DONT MATTER THE "world championship" IS MEANINGLESS .......WTF is swiss scoring doing ( makes the loser a winner) THIS SYSTEM CANNOT BE USED FOR ANY CALLCULATION based on my actual experience of WINNING 2 DECISEVLEY without milking the swiss cow and I am 140 !!! 250 points behind NON PLAYERS. numbers dont lie , just like the cheese they make there are alot of holes in the swiss system

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