Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Get all the latest news on Slitherine.

Moderator: Slitherine Core

AlbertoC
Slitherine
Slitherine
Posts: 1490
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:22 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by AlbertoC » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:32 pm

http://slitherine.com/news/2816/Home.of ... .is.coming!
Home of Wargamers Live II will be even bigger and more ambitious than the first edition... what can you expect to see? Well, how about the first ever video footage of Panzer Corps II?
:)

loganfive
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:46 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by loganfive » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:03 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:34 pm

Which brings us to the Big Question that historians and wargamers have been asking ever since, namely if Hitler hadn't diverted forces away from the push on Moscow in '41 in order to send them south to encircle Kiev, would Germany have been able to take Moscow in 1941 and would the Russians have then surrendered with the fall of Moscow?
Guderian certainly wanted to go for Moscow but was overruled by Hitler-

This is one of those self-promoting claims made by Hitler's generals after the war.

David Glantz, who is widely regarded as the leading English-language historian on the Soviet-German war, has argued that an assault on Moscow in September was not likely to succeed. It could easily have ended in a Stalingrad-style disaster for Germany, because they would have been attacking along a narrow salient, with their Southern flank exposed, while at the end of their logistical rope and with the fall mud and winter cold approaching.

There is also the fact that the Kiev assault was a huge setback for the Soviet Union, as they lost some 450,000 men and the industrial output from Kiev.

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 905
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PoorOldSpike » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:47 pm

Another Big Question is whether Hitler would have been able to capture Moscow the following year in summer 1942?
We'll never know, because he chose to go for Stalingrad instead.
Incidentally, Stalingrad couldn't be surrounded by the Wehrmacht because of the Volga River acting like a gigantic water-filled ditch to north and south, so the Germans had to assault the city head-on and took 90 per cent of it, which suggests they would have been capable of taking Moscow if they'd gone for it instead, and Moscow would have been an easier battle because it could have been surrounded and starved into submission.

dalfrede
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by dalfrede » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:50 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:47 pm
Another Big Question is whether Hitler would have been able to capture Moscow the following year in summer 1942?
Napoleon could not be reached for comment.
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:47 pm
We'll never know, because he chose to go for Stalingrad instead.
Stalingrad was NOT the objective of the '42 summer offensive, the oil fields were.

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:18 pm

AlbertoC wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:32 pm
http://slitherine.com/news/2816/Home.of ... .is.coming!
Home of Wargamers Live II will be even bigger and more ambitious than the first edition... what can you expect to see? Well, how about the first ever video footage of Panzer Corps II?
:)
It is very nice to hear that you will show something on PzC2!

If possible, please put it on youtube later on as well. Thanks!

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:33 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:34 pm
if Hitler hadn't diverted forces away from the push on Moscow in '41 in order to send them south to encircle Kiev, would Germany have been able to take Moscow in 1941
Personally, I don't think the major deciding factors were the (mainly) tank diversions north (Leningrad) and south (Kiev) of Army Group Center but rather the initial delay (incl. losses/wear and tear) resulting from the Balkans campaign, the two months delay (of infantry and other units) around Smolensk (until early September) and Rasputitsa that started mid-October... also as you can't really "take" (i.e. occupy and control) a city of the size of Moscow with tanks only.

On the other side, you could even argue that you needed the battles of Smolensk and Kiev (together around 1.5 million Soviet losses) to weaken the Soviet army down to the around ~100,000 active men left around Moscow (i.e as part of the central Soviet Western Front)... ah and then of course, not to mention the new one million Soviet reserves that were brought into the Moscow area from the Far East by November...

Similar thing by the way at Stalingrad: the 11th army had taken the Crimea and Sevastopol but the whole thing took too long (until July 42). The plans for Operation Blau (with oil as the primary objective) were out in April already. Then Manstein suggested to keep the 11th army as part of Army Group South going into the Caucasus. However, parts were needed to occupy Crimea and others were sent to Crete as well as handed over to Army Group Center. After that, Army Group South was split into Army Group A (heading for oil) and Army Group B (protecting the northern flank of A and heading towards Stalingrad, 6th army mainly).

So too much for too few and stretched too far and too thin all along…
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:34 pm
would the Russians have then surrendered with the fall of Moscow?
I don't think so...
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:47 pm
Moscow would have been an easier battle because it could have been surrounded and starved into submission.
Well, not sure on the "starved into submission" thing, they had tried this at Leningrad for almost 900 days (due to bad experiences during the initial occupation of Kiev and as they didn't want to feed the people).

Outcome: ~1 million civilians dead and ~1-3 million Soviet casualties, as well as 500,000 German casualties but no real military result/success...
Last edited by PeteMitchell_2 on Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 905
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PoorOldSpike » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:58 pm

dalfrede wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:50 pm
Napoleon could not be reached for comment.
...Stalingrad was NOT the objective of the '42 summer offensive, the oil fields were.
Good point about Napoleon, he waltzed into Moscow and waited for the Russkis to come discuss surrender terms, and waited...and waited...but they never showed up, they just left him sitting there looking stupid..:)
As for Stalingrad, it bore Stalin's name, so Adolf CRAVED to have it like a kid craves a lollipop..:)

PS- and of course in 1942 Adolf's new toy the Pz IV with long 75mm gun was entering service, the first jerry tank that was able to slug it out with T-34's, and no doubt convinced him Russia was his for the taking-

Image

kondi754
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3046
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:52 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by kondi754 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:08 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:33 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:22 pm
if Hitler hadn't diverted forces away from the push on Moscow in '41 in order to send them south to encircle Kiev, would Germany have been able to take Moscow in 1941
Personally, I don't think the major deciding factors were the (mainly) tank diversions north (Leningrad) and south (Kiev) of Army Group Center but rather the initial delay (incl. losses/wear and tear) resulting from the Balkans campaign, the two months delay (of infantry and other units) around Smolensk (until early September) and Rasputitsa that started mid-October... also as you can't really "take" (i.e. occupy and control) a city of the size of Moscow with tanks only.

On the other side, you could even argue that you needed the battles of Smolensk and Kiev (together around 1.5 million Soviet losses) to weaken the Soviet army down to the around ~100,000 active men left around Moscow (i.e as part of the central Soviet Western Front)... ah and then of course, not to mention the new one million Soviet reserves that were brought into the Moscow area from the Far East by November...

Similar thing by the way at Stalingrad: the 11th army had taken the Crimea and Sevastopol but the whole thing took too long (until July 42). The plans for Operation Blau (with oil as the primary objective) were out in April already. Then Manstein suggested to keep the 11th army as part of Army Group South going into the Caucasus. However, parts were needed to occupy Crimea and others were sent to Crete as well as handed over to Army Group Center. After that, Army Group South was split into Army Group A (heading for oil) and Army Group B (protecting the northern flank of A and heading towards Stalingrad, 6th army mainly).

So too much for too few and stretched too far and too thin all along…
@PeteMitchell
You have included my nick in this quote, but these are not my words :lol:
As I wrote earlier, Hitler lost the war on September 1, 1939, so when he started it, further divagations don't make much sense to me... :wink:

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 905
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PoorOldSpike » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:15 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:33 pm
..The plans for Operation Blau (with oil as the primary objective) were out in April already.Army Group South was split into Army Group A (heading for oil) and Army Group B (protecting the northern flank of A and heading towards Stalingrad, 6th army mainly).
...[re Moscow]- Well, not sure on the "starved into submission" thing, they had tried this at Leningrad for almost 900 days (due to bad experiences during the initial occupation of Kiev and as they didn't want to feed the people).
1- Going for the oil might have been a mistake, that was Hitler's "politician mentality" coming into play, he said to Guderian in summer 1941 "My generals know nothing about the economic aspects of the war".
So by sending a big chunk of Army Group South to grab the oilfields instead of holding it back to protect the flanks of 6th Army in Stalingrad he doomed the 6th to encirclement.

2- As for Leningrad, it couldn't be surrounded and attacked because it was protected by the sea on one side and the lake on the other so Adolf opted to try to starve it out rather than a costly frontal assault. He said "The city will fall under its own weight", but as we know, it took longer than he expected and he ran out of time.

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:30 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:08 pm
@PeteMitchell
You have included my nick in this quote, but these are not my words :lol:
As I wrote earlier, Hitler lost the war on September 1, 1939, so when he started it, further divagations don't make much sense to me... :wink:
I am very sorry, I just corrected it and I have no idea how this has happened as I usually take this quote function at the top right, i.e. where you mark some text and then just press this button, sorry again!

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:46 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:58 pm
PS- and of course in 1942 Adolf's new toy the Pz IV with long 75mm gun was entering service, the first jerry tank that was able to slug it out with T-34's, and no doubt convinced him Russia was his for the taking-
Well, maybe... you might find this recoding of Hitler and Mannerheim interesting... 4 June 1942 in Finnland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oET1WaG5sFk
Between minute one and two they speak about the number of Soviet tanks... :mrgreen:
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:15 pm
So by sending a big chunk of Army Group South to grab the oilfields instead of holding it back to protect the flanks of 6th Army in Stalingrad he doomed the 6th to encirclement.
Again maybe... some say the oil was much more important (than anything else, OK maybe Ukrainian grain to avoid the situation of WW1).
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:15 pm
2- As for Leningrad, it couldn't be surrounded and attacked because it was protected by the sea on one side and the lake on the other so Adolf opted to try to starve it out rather than a costly frontal assault. He said "The city will fall under its own weight", but as we know, it took longer than he expected and he ran out of time.
I think there are two things to mention here:
First: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan
Second: the experiences of the Kiev occupation, there were several prepared booby traps all over the place

funat
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 9:54 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by funat » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:08 pm

Oil was the most important by far - they never had enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVo5I0xNRhg&t=1505s

Teku
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:34 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by Teku » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:55 pm

for stalingrad, what doomed it was the russian's fierce defense to the last man (as per Stalins orders). It took them weeks for just 1 building, and then when they were encircled, Hitler forbade a breakout attempt and ordered the army to hold out until summer when it could be relived. This was never to happen when army group south was smashed by the soviet offensive. leaving the 200,000 strong army to its fate with only 91,000 being left to be captured. (and only 5,000 of them ever returning to germany in 1955). the complete destruction of 6th army was a catastrophe for army group south and the germany army as a whole that it could not recover from

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 905
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PoorOldSpike » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:08 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:46 pm
... you might find this recoding of Hitler and Mannerheim interesting... 4 June 1942 in Finnland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oET1WaG5sFk
Between minute one and two they speak about the number of Soviet tanks... :mrgreen:
Yes Hitler whines on about not knowing how many tanks Russia had, but then admits at 2:35- "I would have taken the decision to invade" anyway, even if he'd known.

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 905
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PoorOldSpike » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:32 pm

Teku wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:55 pm
..the complete destruction of 6th army was a catastrophe for army group south and the germany army as a whole that it could not recover from
Which raises another question- Hitler launched the Battle of Kursk in July 43 in which he suffered heavy losses in tanks and men, but should those units instead have been used in a defensive role all down the front like a solid wall of steel?

Teku
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:34 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by Teku » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:15 am

that was the advisement of the high command and nearly all of his generals that he should take a defensive stance in 1943, but he was blind to the dangers that this attack imposed and to make it worse, the date of the attack had to be postponed 3 times, which gave the russians time for their defenses to be built up and have nearly full info on when and where the attack was going to be. The end result was all of the offensive might on the eastern front now completely gone and no hope of being able to stop the russian advance

loganfive
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:46 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by loganfive » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:09 am

Teku wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:15 am
that was the advisement of the high command and nearly all of his generals that he should take a defensive stance in 1943, but he was blind to the dangers that this attack imposed and to make it worse, the date of the attack had to be postponed 3 times, which gave the russians time for their defenses to be built up and have nearly full info on when and where the attack was going to be. The end result was all of the offensive might on the eastern front now completely gone and no hope of being able to stop the russian advance
That's actually the opposite of what happened.

It was Hitler's generals (especially Manstein) who pushed for the Kursk offensive. Hitler himself was never particularly in favour of it.

Teku
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:34 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by Teku » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:10 am

loganfive wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:09 am

That's actually the opposite of what happened.

It was Hitler's generals (especially Manstein) who pushed for the Kursk offensive. Hitler himself was never particularly in favour of it.
Thats not how i remember it. Manstein advised they withdraw to better positions while mounting strong counter attacks that would exact heavy tolls on soviet man and tanks, but Hitler (for political reasons) and because Hitler hated retreat under any circumstances, pushed for an offensive that would straighten the salient in the battle line created by Kursk. Which (in theory) would allow the germans to be in ideal defensive positions with the line being straightened and allowing the transfer of units from east to west. While Hitler may have had reservations about it, it was still his decision to go ahead with the operation, as evident with his conversation between guderian and hitler

Guderian: "How many people do you think even know where Kursk is? It is a matter of profound indifference to the world whether we hold Kursk or not. Why do we want to attack in the East at all this year?"
Hitler: You're quite right. Whenever I think of this attack my stomach turns over.

the Battlefield series for kurst goes into better detail about it, but it was still overall Hitlers plan in the end

loganfive
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:46 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by loganfive » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:06 pm

Teku wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:10 am

Thats not how i remember it. Manstein advised they withdraw to better positions while mounting strong counter attacks that would exact heavy tolls on soviet man and tanks, but Hitler (for political reasons) and because Hitler hated retreat under any circumstances, pushed for an offensive that would straighten the salient in the battle line created by Kursk. Which (in theory) would allow the germans to be in ideal defensive positions with the line being straightened and allowing the transfer of units from east to west. While Hitler may have had reservations about it, it was still his decision to go ahead with the operation, as evident with his conversation between guderian and hitler

Guderian: "How many people do you think even know where Kursk is? It is a matter of profound indifference to the world whether we hold Kursk or not. Why do we want to attack in the East at all this year?"
Hitler: You're quite right. Whenever I think of this attack my stomach turns over.

the Battlefield series for kurst goes into better detail about it, but it was still overall Hitlers plan in the end
Well, here's the Wikipedia article on Kursk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... reparation

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #9

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:51 pm

From my understanding of the situation in 43 and the Battle of Kursk, some opinions had changed/evolved over time as well, so it might also depend on the point of time you look at.

However, to some extent it all follows a similar pattern as in previous years: delays to start with and then too much (for too few) to be successful…

To me, these are all examples similar to when a snake tries to swallow an alligator and then just explodes… :mrgreen:

Image

It would be nice to see a new Dev Diary come out soon! :D

Post Reply

Return to “News & Announcements”