Historical Insignia?

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Ballacraine
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Historical Insignia?

Post by Ballacraine » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:30 pm

I appreciate the reasons why the game was released according to legal & political correctness, but I do find it breaks immersion that we do not have correct historical insignia.
Obviously primarily this applies to the German faction, but also to Italian & perhaps even Spanish, given the upcoming Spanish Civil War DLC?
There was an excellent mod for PC 1, I do hope someone is able to do a similar bang up job for PC 2.
:)

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:12 pm

We have no plans to change the German iconography but I don't see any reason, other than technical, why we would not use Spanish and Italian. There are currently technical and performance limitations to how much we can do on any one vehicle, which makes some of the more distinctive and interesting schemes difficult if not impossible to recreate .. at the moment.

Finnish might present a problem but we'll have to see.

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Ballacraine
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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Ballacraine » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:11 pm

Actually, it was more the icons that I was concerned about, rather than the actual livery of the vehicles & aircraft. :)

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:13 pm

Ballacraine wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:11 pm
Actually, it was more the icons that I was concerned about, rather than the actual livery of the vehicles & aircraft. :)
Just so we're talking about the same thing..

Icons - the greyscale images in the top right of the in-game screen that tell you whose turn it is. They're also used in the end game screens.
Insignia - the tiny badges added to all vehicles. We can only assign 1 per faction ..
camo - the tiled pattern layered on vehicles.
flags - flag elements used in the UI ( shop and unit info) and on the map.

So some people say they want to have historically correct symbolism. This would suggest swastikas on aircraft rudders ( technically impossible unless you also want them on the wings, fuselage and on tanks and other ground vehicles so its never going to happen), a swastika as the faction icon ( not going to happen ), swastikas on flags ( not going to happen ).

Now whether it happens in the future as a mod, who knows, but it couldn't be endorsed by us.
And maybe someday we might get explicit instructions from our lawyers that historical games are now exempt from people trying to make a fast buck by prosecuting us, but in too many areas it's still very grey so we're not going to go there.

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Ballacraine
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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Ballacraine » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:15 pm

OK If that is the nomenclature you use, I would say I was referring to Flags & Insignia :)

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by fluffybunnyuk » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:43 pm

These things are always a difficult choice with controversial history. The game publishers could have played safe, and gone with a british/french army start, and made the game more palatable to those people who would find playing as the german army difficult for historical reasons. After all who wouldnt love a chaffee recon, and a sherman tank.
I applaud them for taking a sensible middle ground, after all it is called panzer corps. Another controversial one would be the Japanese flag. The Kyokujitsu-ki similarly I would not expect to be used in any possible future pacific expansion since its obviously offensive to South Korean, and Chinese people.
The question is can you historically separate the german army from the nazi politics? No, because almost 30% of the officers were NSDAP members. So the idea that the army was free of nazi politics is just a myth. However modern life plays a part too. Some extremists today profess nazi ideology, and its a big problem. A game with a nazi flag in it however historically accurate is red meat to the extremists, and a reminder to the victims descendants unfortunately.
Luckily we are starting to live in more enlightened times, where people think about symbolism, and its impact on groups of people. We are starting to be considerate in how we use them. Small steps like the one made by the developers on this shows how far we have come in the last 20 years, and yet, how far we have to go.

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Ballacraine » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:58 pm

I don't want this to turn into a political debate, that is not the intention.
All I will say that is ironic that the swastika originated as a good luck symbol in the dark ages, or perhaps earlier & it was unfortunately adopted by an evil regime in relatively recent times. :o/
Still that is history. :)

Of course the developers have to be politically correct & not endorse anything that might lead to negative reaction at any level.
My query was, are there any modders working on, or perhaps porting / upgrading the Historical Insignia mod from PC1 to PC2?
I feel historical insignia in general add to immersion.

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by 1ang » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:58 pm

Ballacraine wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:58 pm
I don't want this to turn into a political debate, that is not the intention.
All I will say that is ironic that the swastika originated as a good luck symbol in the dark ages, or perhaps earlier & it was unfortunately adopted by an evil regime in relatively recent times. :o/
Still that is history. :)

Of course the developers have to be politically correct & not endorse anything that might lead to negative reaction at any level.
My query was, are there any modders working on, or perhaps porting / upgrading the Historical Insignia mod from PC1 to PC2?
I feel historical insignia in general add to immersion.
CIAO Ballacraine,YOU JUST REALLY JUST THINK THAT AT THE TIME ITALY WAS A KINGDOM AND NOT A REPUBLIC AT THIS POINT AND MUCH BETTER Order of Battle World War II EXAMPLE IF ITALY CONQUERS A CITY THE FLAG IS OF THE KINGDOM AND NOT REPUBLICAN AND IN PZ 2 IS NOT SO CIAO 8)

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Ballacraine » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:13 pm

Just part of my point really.
I feel that it can really add a level of immersion. :)

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Patrick Ward » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:29 pm

1ang wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:58 pm
Ballacraine wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:58 pm
I don't want this to turn into a political debate, that is not the intention.
All I will say that is ironic that the swastika originated as a good luck symbol in the dark ages, or perhaps earlier & it was unfortunately adopted by an evil regime in relatively recent times. :o/
Still that is history. :)

Of course the developers have to be politically correct & not endorse anything that might lead to negative reaction at any level.
My query was, are there any modders working on, or perhaps porting / upgrading the Historical Insignia mod from PC1 to PC2?
I feel historical insignia in general add to immersion.
CIAO Ballacraine,YOU JUST REALLY JUST THINK THAT AT THE TIME ITALY WAS A KINGDOM AND NOT A REPUBLIC AT THIS POINT AND MUCH BETTER Order of Battle World War II EXAMPLE IF ITALY CONQUERS A CITY THE FLAG IS OF THE KINGDOM AND NOT REPUBLICAN AND IN PZ 2 IS NOT SO CIAO 8)
If I've got something wrong with the Italian flag then please let me know. While I do my best, the historical use of flags throughout Europe and beyond isn't really my area of expertise so I'm open to new sources. If it's a particular problem with the flag choice in some scenarios then again, let us know if we've got something wrong. And please cite sources where possible as we need to justify changes.

Pat
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SineMora
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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by SineMora » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:00 pm

Patrick Ward wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:29 pm
If I've got something wrong with the Italian flag then please let me know. While I do my best, the historical use of flags throughout Europe and beyond isn't really my area of expertise so I'm open to new sources. If it's a particular problem with the flag choice in some scenarios then again, let us know if we've got something wrong. And please cite sources where possible as we need to justify changes.

Pat
The Italian flag used in PzC2 is the modern one adopted by the Italian Republic in 1946. During WW2 Italy was still a kingdom and had a different flag, which is probably what he's talking about.
Mildly pretentious Swede. Goes by Path on most platforms, including Steam.
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=596&t=98034 -- Generalissimus AAR (no Trophies / Heroes)

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Patrick Ward » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:25 am

SineMora wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:00 pm
Patrick Ward wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:29 pm
If I've got something wrong with the Italian flag then please let me know. While I do my best, the historical use of flags throughout Europe and beyond isn't really my area of expertise so I'm open to new sources. If it's a particular problem with the flag choice in some scenarios then again, let us know if we've got something wrong. And please cite sources where possible as we need to justify changes.

Pat
The Italian flag used in PzC2 is the modern one adopted by the Italian Republic in 1946. During WW2 Italy was still a kingdom and had a different flag, which is probably what he's talking about.
OK Thanks.

Pat
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1ang
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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by 1ang » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:53 pm

Patrick Ward wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:29 pm
1ang wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:58 pm
Ballacraine wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:58 pm
I don't want this to turn into a political debate, that is not the intention.
All I will say that is ironic that the swastika originated as a good luck symbol in the dark ages, or perhaps earlier & it was unfortunately adopted by an evil regime in relatively recent times. :o/
Still that is history. :)

Of course the developers have to be politically correct & not endorse anything that might lead to negative reaction at any level.
My query was, are there any modders working on, or perhaps porting / upgrading the Historical Insignia mod from PC1 to PC2?
I feel historical insignia in general add to immersion.
CIAO Ballacraine,YOU JUST REALLY JUST THINK THAT AT THE TIME ITALY WAS A KINGDOM AND NOT A REPUBLIC AT THIS POINT AND MUCH BETTER Order of Battle World War II EXAMPLE IF ITALY CONQUERS A CITY THE FLAG IS OF THE KINGDOM AND NOT REPUBLICAN AND IN PZ 2 IS NOT SO CIAO 8)
If I've got something wrong with the Italian flag then please let me know. While I do my best, the historical use of flags throughout Europe and beyond isn't really my area of expertise so I'm open to new sources. If it's a particular problem with the flag choice in some scenarios then again, let us know if we've got something wrong. And please cite sources where possible as we need to justify changes.

Pat
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regno_d%2 ... 1861-1946)
ciao Patrick Ward,the link from wikipedia there is the flag of the period of the ruling the current one is only the tricolor without the stamp Savoy under the link of the game order of battles ww2 an image
https://steamcommunity.com/games/312450 ... 0798007764

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Patrick Ward » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:33 pm

1ang wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:53 pm
Patrick Ward wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:29 pm
1ang wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:58 pm

CIAO Ballacraine,YOU JUST REALLY JUST THINK THAT AT THE TIME ITALY WAS A KINGDOM AND NOT A REPUBLIC AT THIS POINT AND MUCH BETTER Order of Battle World War II EXAMPLE IF ITALY CONQUERS A CITY THE FLAG IS OF THE KINGDOM AND NOT REPUBLICAN AND IN PZ 2 IS NOT SO CIAO 8)
If I've got something wrong with the Italian flag then please let me know. While I do my best, the historical use of flags throughout Europe and beyond isn't really my area of expertise so I'm open to new sources. If it's a particular problem with the flag choice in some scenarios then again, let us know if we've got something wrong. And please cite sources where possible as we need to justify changes.

Pat
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regno_d%2 ... 1861-1946)
ciao Patrick Ward,the link from wikipedia there is the flag of the period of the ruling the current one is only the tricolor without the stamp Savoy under the link of the game order of battles ww2 an image
https://steamcommunity.com/games/312450 ... 0798007764
Sorry for the mistake. It has been corrected and will likely appear in the next update.

P
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1ang
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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by 1ang » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:41 pm

Patrick Ward wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:33 pm
1ang wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:53 pm
Patrick Ward wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:29 pm


If I've got something wrong with the Italian flag then please let me know. While I do my best, the historical use of flags throughout Europe and beyond isn't really my area of expertise so I'm open to new sources. If it's a particular problem with the flag choice in some scenarios then again, let us know if we've got something wrong. And please cite sources where possible as we need to justify changes.

Pat
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regno_d%2 ... 1861-1946)
ciao Patrick Ward,the link from wikipedia there is the flag of the period of the ruling the current one is only the tricolor without the stamp Savoy under the link of the game order of battles ww2 an image
https://steamcommunity.com/games/312450 ... 0798007764
Sorry for the mistake. It has been corrected and will likely appear in the next update.

P
CIAO Patrick Ward,OK THANK YOU SO MUCH
:lol:

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by fluffybunnyuk » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:52 am

I found the discussion really interesting about the italian flag and its evolution, and guises.
I was reading the wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Italy and am confused about where the flag of the kingdom of italy (1861-1946) ends, and where the flag of the italian social republic/republic of salo starts (1943-1945)?
I understand the history of the reasons for the dissolution, the evolution, and the constitution of 1947 enacted 1948. But because of my ignorance of the small details, would like a historical clarification just because i like to understand these things better, and i like information. Was it just that every faction wanted the house of savoy removed from the flag?

Usually i skip Rome, and head for Florence but next time I visit Italy, I will visit the Altare della Patria.

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by 1ang » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:26 am

fluffybunnyuk wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:52 am
I found the discussion really interesting about the italian flag and its evolution, and guises.
I was reading the wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Italy and am confused about where the flag of the kingdom of italy (1861-1946) ends, and where the flag of the italian social republic/republic of salo starts (1943-1945)?
I understand the history of the reasons for the dissolution, the evolution, and the constitution of 1947 enacted 1948. But because of my ignorance of the small details, would like a historical clarification just because i like to understand these things better, and i like information. Was it just that every faction wanted the house of savoy removed from the flag?

Usually i skip Rome, and head for Florence but next time I visit Italy, I will visit the Altare della Patria.
CIAO fluffybunnyuk,
I state that I am not a historian and in parentheses all politics I fake closed parentheses what I know comes from documentaries broadcast on television and the internet unfortunately this year marks 80 years of the entry into the war of Italy June 10, 1940 and from which they are benito mussolini he sent many Italians to die, not least since he landed in Sicily (codename Husky) and the armistice arrived on September 8, 1943
translated by google
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Fascism
:D

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by DeathAndPain » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:54 pm

Pat, I have good news for you: swastikas are no longer forbidden in computer games in Germany. Actually, the strict ban was lifted in 2018. Please, find details here:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

So now please follow up on your promise to implement them. (Btw, having them in as an option would probably make your game more appealing for purchase to some, while I cannot imagine any people who would basically buy such a game but refrain from doing it because you made this option available.)

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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:23 am

DeathAndPain wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:54 pm
Pat, I have good news for you: swastikas are no longer forbidden in computer games in Germany. Actually, the strict ban was lifted in 2018. Please, find details here:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

So now please follow up on your promise to implement them. (Btw, having them in as an option would probably make your game more appealing for purchase to some, while I cannot imagine any people who would basically buy such a game but refrain from doing it because you made this option available.)
If you read over my previous comments you'll see I made no such promise and in fact said it was currently "technically impossible" on planes. That hasn't changed and I know of no current plans to do so. As for flags, not my call, but I don't imagine theres any enthusiasm for it at all.

Sorry.

Pat
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Re: Historical Insignia?

Post by Wowlegend » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:17 pm

Swastikas would never be allowed today. You can barely utter the word without being nailed to the cross (no pun intended) in America. We all know the reasons why. Its ironic really. The bolshevik revolution (I recommend any to research the bolsheviks and the meneshiviks) saw tens of millions of people killed. Mostly Christians and Bourgeoisie. More people than in the holocaust. Yet there is no issue with the the sickle and hammer. The problem is, the kind of people who were murdered by the bolsheviks, do not sway popular opinion with control of mass media. Strange that we can emulate a war of mass barbarism, destruction, and murder (perpetrated by all sides) without moral dilemma. Yet a symbol causes the most severe outrage. It all happened way before I was born. As a result, I have no more feelings about it than I do when I read about Nero or Attila. Alas, in today's world it seems our fragile minds must be protected lest we develop our own opinions. Millions were killed in China by Imperial Japan. I wonder if the Chinese don't allow the rising sun in their video games? Perhaps its a syndrome unique to the western world...

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