No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

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Master-of-Crab-People
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No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Master-of-Crab-People » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:02 pm

I was shocked to discover that at any point during my turn I can press "Exit to Menu" and then start my turn from the beginning...

Is it how it is supposed to work? Is there any way to prevent this kind of cheating? How is it possible to hold a tournament with such a flaw in PBEM?

:(

leightwing
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by leightwing » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:01 am

I was thinking the same thing. I play with friends so it's not a big deal. In fact we have an agreement that you are allowed to "replay" ONCE due to a legitimate mis-click, AND you must do your best to duplicate your play up to that point. Generally speaking we consider mis-clicks to be orders that have been either ignored or miscommunicated, etc.

KarisFraMauro
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by KarisFraMauro » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:24 am

... Dang you may have a point. I won't say it's a super big advantage necessarily, depending on the map, but yeah it is definitely a concern.

Shards
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Shards » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:46 am

We track every download and upload of a game turn and ban players that abuse the turn based nature of the games.

KarisFraMauro
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by KarisFraMauro » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:33 pm

Whew, load off my mind! There have been times when I had to quit my turn halfway through because of some kind of glitch issue, but when that happens I generally just give up on the game entirely.

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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Brenmusik » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:30 pm

KarisFraMauro wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:33 pm
Whew, load off my mind! There have been times when I had to quit my turn halfway through because of some kind of glitch issue, but when that happens I generally just give up on the game entirely.
You are welcome to give up on my Russian Campaign :wink:

leightwing
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by leightwing » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:20 pm

Shards wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:46 am
We track every download and upload of a game turn and ban players that abuse the turn based nature of the games.
Thank your for responding. This is good to hear. I assume you only do this with tournament games? I see no reason to do it with private "locked" games unless they somehow make a difference in some scoring/rating system that I'm not aware of.

conboy
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by conboy » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:45 pm

Leightwing,
Nobody checks pickup games locked or not.
I have no idea how to catch someone at it.
I can't tell one ass whippen from another one.

conboy

Also, there's no rating system for pickup game players.
Last edited by conboy on Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Master-of-Crab-People
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Master-of-Crab-People » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:04 am

Shards wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:46 am
We track every download and upload of a game turn and ban players that abuse the turn based nature of the games.
That is definitely better than nothing but it is far from a full solution. Do you have any plans to improve the system? Ideally, in case of a middle turn reload, I would expect to continue from where the reload happened.

Shards
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Shards » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:37 am

Master-of-Crab-People wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:04 am
Shards wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:46 am
We track every download and upload of a game turn and ban players that abuse the turn based nature of the games.
That is definitely better than nothing but it is far from a full solution. Do you have any plans to improve the system? Ideally, in case of a middle turn reload, I would expect to continue from where the reload happened.
So games, like Field of Glory 2, do have the ability to do a mid-turn save up to the server, but OOB doesn't implement that.

In general, our expectation is that you're reloading because you've crashed (as OOB turns are generally fairly short in MP, with the exception of Erik's Opuses (Opii?)). We're always working to improve our PBEM systems though. Our newer games are on PBEM v3 now whilst OOB is still on PBEM v2 for now.

Master-of-Crab-People
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Master-of-Crab-People » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:53 pm

Shards wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:37 am
Master-of-Crab-People wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:04 am
Shards wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:46 am
We track every download and upload of a game turn and ban players that abuse the turn based nature of the games.
That is definitely better than nothing but it is far from a full solution. Do you have any plans to improve the system? Ideally, in case of a middle turn reload, I would expect to continue from where the reload happened.
So games, like Field of Glory 2, do have the ability to do a mid-turn save up to the server, but OOB doesn't implement that.

In general, our expectation is that you're reloading because you've crashed (as OOB turns are generally fairly short in MP, with the exception of Erik's Opuses (Opii?)). We're always working to improve our PBEM systems though. Our newer games are on PBEM v3 now whilst OOB is still on PBEM v2 for now.
Thanks for the reply. Do you mean that if someday OOB migrates to PBEMv3, it will be capable of saving the game mid-turn?

Master-of-Crab-People
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Master-of-Crab-People » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:13 pm

Shards wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:46 am
We track every download and upload of a game turn and ban players that abuse the turn based nature of the games.
As I understand it, you track how many times a player downloads a game turn. That means, if I download it frequently (e.g. to replay enemy turn multiple times), I will be banned. But if I reload it only occasionally (e.g. only after I got ambushed), I will be safe. Is it correct?

KarisFraMauro
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by KarisFraMauro » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:55 am

Well I can't see any reason someone would reload occasionally in a tournament. Or, at all... So I'm guessing don't reload even once unless you want to be banned?

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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Master-of-Crab-People » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:59 am

KarisFraMauro wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:55 am
Well I can't see any reason someone would reload occasionally in a tournament. Or, at all... So I'm guessing don't reload even once unless you want to be banned?
What's wrong with watching opponent's turn several times? As far as I know, after replay has finished, there's no other way to start it over except reloading the turn.

KarisFraMauro
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by KarisFraMauro » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:05 pm

If you want to see an opponent's move again, can't you just hit the rewind button? Or just watch carefully the first time for that matter? Reloading an entire turn still feels drastic to me. If anybody else wants to weigh in, I'd welcome an impartial third party's viewpoint here.

Chema_cagi
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Chema_cagi » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:09 pm

The only feature I miss from PC and PC2 is the undo button...The ability to redo a stupid, uninformative move.

Having a handful of sausages as fingers, and a seemingly unstopping old age, I have found myself reloading a couple of times in PBEM games due to silly slipping moves (and some extremely long russian campaign turns with KarisFraMauro due to RL issues and/or sudden depression :) )


But I agree with the idea of having some control preventing abuse in tournaments

Erik2
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by Erik2 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:17 pm

Undo should not be permitted in multiplayer IMO. Part of the joy of MP is unpredictable human moves.
I think it is important to find regular players that you learn to trust.

For single-player you can always do a manual save before a dangerous move, or simply reload the last turn.

conboy
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by conboy » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:37 am

I definitely agree with Erik2 on this!

conboy

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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by KarisFraMauro » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:59 am

Undo in multiplayer feels like it defeats the purpose. Probably ninety percent of the people I play against are familiar faces and that's fine. When I'm in a game against someone I'll generally have a look in the forums for them.

conboy
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Re: No protection against reload cheating in PBEM++?

Post by conboy » Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:59 pm

Karis said
So I'm guessing don't reload even once unless you want to be banned?
I have had to reload in a tournament at least once because of crashes. So I think that's a bit too much.
And I think you should observe the opponent's turn only once as it is replayed and not reload.

conboy

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