Game of Thrones Mod

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Geffalrus
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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:34 pm

You're absolutely right about the need for different army lists for different parts of the War of the Five Kings. These generic lists will be the foundation, but the armies of specific leaders will deviate quite substantially since they could have access to unique units like light artillery for Edmure, clansmen for Stannis in the North, and others beyond that. Very exciting to contemplate.

Alright, I'm going to play around a bit with how many pikes to add for the existing factions, the raw spear/peasant mob balance, and tweak a few other things. Next update will be just an improved version of the current factions. Then I'll move on to Reach/Vale/Stormlands.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Horde » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:59 am

I took a look to the book of World of Game of Thrones.

North: It has an archaic feeling. For instance, northmen are described doing great mock battles that occupy an entire parish instead of smaller melees, like in early tourneys, in tune with the Dark Ages vibe of the list. We are told about the inhabitants of the island of Skaggos "A huge, hairy, foulsmelling folk (some maesters believe the Skagosi to have a strong admixture of Ibbenese blood; others suggest that they may be descended from giants), clad in skins and furs and untanned hides, and said to ride on unicorns". Perhaps they could be berserkers, but they don´t usually meddle with people of Westeros.

Wildlings and North Watch: Nothing useful per se, but I think that they should have some shooting capability and light infantry. In the books they are said to use small bows, without the reach of the longbows of the Watch. Perhaps they can include some kind of melee oriented light infantry to show some fierce warriors of the cannibal tribes, or wargs with animals: impact foot and swordsmen light infantry. They wouldn´t attack formed infantry in the open, but they can put in flight or exterminate other light infantry, and even do charges against formed troops in the rough ground, to show aggresive skirmish tactics (kinda cinematic, think about a horror film). Just a though though.

Riverlands: Late medieval feeling. They are described as the most war-ridden part of Westeros: "No other land in the Seven Kingdoms has seen so many battles, nor so many petty kings and royal houses rising and falling". This is because they are rich (there are many rich lands in Westeros, it seems that no kingdom has lands with dephicit of phosporus or low PH fields) and they have no natural borders. Less concentration of power, and no great cities, so more vassals that can wage skirmishes against each other. They are not shown as being more proficient in war than other kingdoms, though.

Vale: Described as extremely fertile, so rich and late medieval. They have the usual array of feudalism and knights, but, because they had usually fought against sea raiders and defended a mountain range, perhaps they can be focused less in mounted knights and more in heavy infantry? Like heavy weapon, superior, 100 or 125 armour, to represent heavily armoured knights with men-at-arms. No hard data to back it, just something to differentiate them.

Iron Islands: They are allegedly bleak and poor islands, but in the books they seem to support a gigantic fleet and have a never-ending supply of fierce raiders, kind of inconsistent but cool. I thought that they should be less protected than average Westeros infantry, but their main export, apart from pirates, is iron, and we read that "There are many fine metalworkers amongst the ironborn, as might be expected; the forges of Lordsport produce swords, axes, ringmail, and plate second to none", so perhaps they should have armoured "huscarls" and protected offensive spearmen as normal ironborn-that is, a typical norsemen list.

Westerland: Again, a rich land, both from the yield of the fields and from the gold of the mines. They had an important army. In the war of the Septones, they send a thousand knights and ten thousand men at arms, even if their lord by then, father of Tywyn, was a weak ruler. At the return of the war Tywyn imposed himself to his vassals, with an escort of "five hundred knights, blooded and seasoned veterans of the Stepstones" (which could be a cool special troop, but they opperated many years before the span of the mod). They have a great city and Tywyn Lannister is known to have greatly trained troops. I think some of their men-at-arms can be drilled, to represent the garrison of Lannisport and better trained troops, perhaps costing 1 or 2 pts more per unit because the ability is not so useful.

The Reach: Is "the largest and most populous" of the kingdoms of the south. There´s a great city, Oldtown, that perhaps can have another special regiment of guards. Perhaps they should have the greatest proportion of better equiped knights, as they are fake-France.

The Stormlands: Not particularly rich, for a change, and thinly populated. Part of the territory is occupied by mountains, and part with poor grassland that makes a march between the northern Stormlands and Dorne and has a Castille of Scottish borderlands vibe: "The fiercest fighters in the stormlands, and perhaps in all of Westeros, are undoubtedly the men of the marches, who are said to be born with sword in hand and oft boast of learning to fight even before they learn to walk". So I suppose that they should have good amounts of good lancers or knights, perhaps with cheap equipment. All stormlanders are regarded as aggresive: "The people of the stormlands are like unto their weather, it has oft been said: tumultuous, violent, implacable, unpredictable"; I suspect that Martin first created the king and then he made all his peoples like this! So perhaps they can have raw deep offensive spearmen as levy?

Dorne: In the north, "The stony Dornish have the most in common with those north of the mountains and are the least touched by Rhoynish custom", but they constantly wage war against his septentrional neighbours, I suppose they can have a great proportion of experience troops. Perhaps lancers, on account of the raids in the open terrain of the southern Stormlands? In the south there are desert nomads with horses "light-boned and unable to easily bear the weight of a knight in armor, they are swift and tireless", so perhaps troops like bedoin lancers and light bedouin lancers should be included. Their infantry should be defensive spearmen and crossbowmen, I suppose, to continue with the Al-Andalus atmosphere, and perhaps with no knight altogether (even if I think that the real Al-Andalus had troops that can be regarded as knights), or at least no heavy-equiped ones. This will make Dorne a large army in the scenarios, even if they have a tiny population in the lore, but that´s the limitations of the point system.

Lorath: Has "little in the way of military power".

Norvos: A theocracy with a "holy guard of slave soldiers, fierce fighters who bear the brand of a double-bladed axe upon their breasts and ritually marry the longaxes they fight with."

Qohor: Known for the quality of their weapon-craft, "but the people of the city are not of a martial bent.", and just have a city watch and an army of Unsullied.

Tyrosh, Myr and Lys: They wage their wars using mercenaries.

Pentos: Has its military capabilities capped after a defeat against Braavos, so they can´t have an army of do contracts with sellswords.

Volantis: Has slave soldiers that seem to be state property, one of the few real standing armies that is not a mercenary company in Game of Thrones´ world. They also have war elephants.

Braavos: No clue about their standing army. They have an Renaissance vibe, so perhaps they can have pikemen, but that´s wild speculation.

When you have the next version perhaps we can play a MP match with a Stark-generic list, if you have the time.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Geffalrus » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:56 pm

New versions up on the main post. Westerlands and Riverlands added, some units rebalanced/added/deleted, and MP version now available. :D

Next update will definitely include the Reach and the Stormlands.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Horde » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:31 pm

Tully longbowmen are quite good! Devastating against bannermen at range, and they erase enemy longbowmen in hand to hand combate due to the POA advantage.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Geffalrus » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:04 am

New version will be uploaded once I fully implement the Stormlands, Reach, and Iron Islands as described in their posts. That will just leave the Vale, Crownlands, and Dorne for the last of the generic pre-GoT army lists.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Horde » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:19 pm

Looking forwards for the new armies! Just two things about the Iron Islands, perhaps they could do with some kind of impact foot infantry? Just saying it because of their reputation as fierce, and because I don´t recall many examples of two-handed weapons. That´s a minor thing, though, because heavy weapons can represent one handed axes and cutting swords too. Also, I though that perhaps some of the infantry can be made medium instead of heavy. I get that the vikings are heavy infantry in the main game, but ironborn should be ok with relatively open shieldwalls, given that they are mainly raiders.

I have played another couple of battles with the already included armies. I think the Great Houses have similar playstyles but each have their own flavour, which is good. Apart from the Night Watch, which I haven´t played, I think the overall weaker are the savages from beyond the wall. They don´t really have a response against cavalry parked in front of their battleline. That fits the lore, but I think that perhaps they can do with some shooting power, perhaps significant amounts of skirmishers of some shooting capability in their warbands.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:00 pm

Humorous update:

When selecting a unit to use for the border levy, I randomly chose German Warband. Instead of the regular Celtic one I guess? Either way, when I went to test everything I was confronted by a mostly naked Baratheon Border Levy unit shouting at me. Guess I haven't used that unit much in FoG2 since I didn't know that unit model was even an option. I'm going to leave it be for now, because that's kinda funny, but eventually, I'll replace it since I'm pretty sure the Marcher infantry of the Boneway Pass favored pants at the very least. Then again, this is the series adapted by HBO, so who knows......... :lol:

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:14 pm

Horde wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:19 pm
Looking forwards for the new armies! Just two things about the Iron Islands, perhaps they could do with some kind of impact foot infantry? Just saying it because of their reputation as fierce, and because I don´t recall many examples of two-handed weapons. That´s a minor thing, though, because heavy weapons can represent one handed axes and cutting swords too. Also, I though that perhaps some of the infantry can be made medium instead of heavy. I get that the vikings are heavy infantry in the main game, but ironborn should be ok with relatively open shieldwalls, given that they are mainly raiders.

I have played another couple of battles with the already included armies. I think the Great Houses have similar playstyles but each have their own flavour, which is good. Apart from the Night Watch, which I haven´t played, I think the overall weaker are the savages from beyond the wall. They don´t really have a response against cavalry parked in front of their battleline. That fits the lore, but I think that perhaps they can do with some shooting power, perhaps significant amounts of skirmishers of some shooting capability in their warbands.
Ironborn

Impact foot is not a crazy idea. Offensive spears are technically shock infantry in that they stick to a unit when pushing it back like impact foot do, but HW and defensive spears don't. I could consider Impact Foot for the Iron Raiders (but I'm keeping the axe based unit model because I think it looks very appropriate). The Iron Raiders - are - medium foot now to give the Ironborn some flexibility and since raider units probably fight in a more open formation. So for now they're above average some armor heavy weapon medium foot who can do pretty well in rough ground. But impact foot sword some armor above average could be another interpretation. That unit would be VERY vulnerable to cavalry, obviously. I want to be careful not to make the Ironborn too strong in rough ground.

I could change the Iron Retainers to Offensive Spear since that unit would stick better than heavy weapons, have better POA vs. swords, and be okay at holding off cavalry. The Iron Retinue will stay as is because their equivalent unit in FoGM is a well-proven beast that is plenty effective.

Most of the axe references in the books to axes are to one-handed varieties, for sure. That can easily be modeled by heavy weapon, or as the secondary weapon for a spear unit. Graphically, I do want them to favor axe models since that helps them look different.

Oh, one other way that the Ironborn are shown to be fierce is that their lower class units are average rather than raw.

Free Folk

Shooting capability in their warbands is an interesting idea. I'll think on that option a bit. Clearly they're not a super organized military, so anything goes. Are there enough Mammoths to try and deal with knights? I was thinking of maybe making Giants an uber-elephant unit with more armor or morale or something. Maybe mammoths + giants could be the knight solution since the lore is not very encouraging of their archery?

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by edb1815 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:55 pm

Wow, kudos on such a large modding project. A group is doing a GoT mod for M&B Bannerlord. I was waiting for that, nice to see it here.

I take it you are using a time period after the Targaryns, so no dragons! That would be hard to do with FOG! Same with the wights and walkers I suppose.

What about Dothracki? Somewhat like Mongols/Tatars/Cumans without the Best Equipped or other lancers?

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:20 pm

edb1815 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:55 pm
Wow, kudos on such a large modding project. A group is doing a GoT mod for M&B Bannerlord. I was waiting for that, nice to see it here.

I take it you are using a time period after the Targaryns, so no dragons! That would be hard to do with FOG! Same with the wights and walkers I suppose.

What about Dothracki? Somewhat like Mongols/Tatars/Cumans without the Best Equipped or other lancers?
Yeah, dragons would be a wee bit tricky with the existing game engine. Not impossible, but I want more modding practice before I dive into that. For wights and walkers, I'd need to coordinate with the Zombie mod guy.

Dothraki are an obvious future addition. I want to nail down Westeros a bit before I jump all the way over to Essos because there are some very interesting factions over there, with some unique units. At the moment, I'd say that the Dothraki are probably a straightforward combo of Superior unarmored horse archers (medium and light varieties) and the Jaqqa Ran (I think?) who are the older Dothraki who use long spears to finish off the wounded. Maybe Jaqqa Ran are Highly Superior unarmored lancers who can evade? Many fun possibilities. Need to make sure that they live up to the reputation of the best horsemen in the world.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Horde » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:58 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:14 pm

Ironborn

Impact foot is not a crazy idea. Offensive spears are technically shock infantry in that they stick to a unit when pushing it back like impact foot do, but HW and defensive spears don't. I could consider Impact Foot for the Iron Raiders (but I'm keeping the axe based unit model because I think it looks very appropriate). The Iron Raiders - are - medium foot now to give the Ironborn some flexibility and since raider units probably fight in a more open formation. So for now they're above average some armor heavy weapon medium foot who can do pretty well in rough ground. But impact foot sword some armor above average could be another interpretation. That unit would be VERY vulnerable to cavalry, obviously. I want to be careful not to make the Ironborn too strong in rough ground.

I could change the Iron Retainers to Offensive Spear since that unit would stick better than heavy weapons, have better POA vs. swords, and be okay at holding off cavalry. The Iron Retinue will stay as is because their equivalent unit in FoGM is a well-proven beast that is plenty effective.

Most of the axe references in the books to axes are to one-handed varieties, for sure. That can easily be modeled by heavy weapon, or as the secondary weapon for a spear unit. Graphically, I do want them to favor axe models since that helps them look different.

Oh, one other way that the Ironborn are shown to be fierce is that their lower class units are average rather than raw.
In this case I think every possibility is good.
Geffalrus wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:14 pm
Free Folk

Shooting capability in their warbands is an interesting idea. I'll think on that option a bit. Clearly they're not a super organized military, so anything goes. Are there enough Mammoths to try and deal with knights? I was thinking of maybe making Giants an uber-elephant unit with more armor or morale or something. Maybe mammoths + giants could be the knight solution since the lore is not very encouraging of their archery?
Mmm, I didn´t play as the savages, just against them, so perhaps I´m biased and they already have the tools to fight against knights. I retire what I say until I have more experience with the army.
Geffalrus wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:00 pm
Humorous update:

When selecting a unit to use for the border levy, I randomly chose German Warband. Instead of the regular Celtic one I guess? Either way, when I went to test everything I was confronted by a mostly naked Baratheon Border Levy unit shouting at me. Guess I haven't used that unit much in FoG2 since I didn't know that unit model was even an option. I'm going to leave it be for now, because that's kinda funny, but eventually, I'll replace it since I'm pretty sure the Marcher infantry of the Boneway Pass favored pants at the very least. Then again, this is the series adapted by HBO, so who knows......... :lol:
Well, this will explain the reputation of the Stormlanders.
Geffalrus wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:20 pm
Yeah, dragons would be a wee bit tricky with the existing game engine. Not impossible, but I want more modding practice before I dive into that. For wights and walkers, I'd need to coordinate with the Zombie mod guy.

Dothraki are an obvious future addition. I want to nail down Westeros a bit before I jump all the way over to Essos because there are some very interesting factions over there, with some unique units. At the moment, I'd say that the Dothraki are probably a straightforward combo of Superior unarmored horse archers (medium and light varieties) and the Jaqqa Ran (I think?) who are the older Dothraki who use long spears to finish off the wounded. Maybe Jaqqa Ran are Highly Superior unarmored lancers who can evade? Many fun possibilities. Need to make sure that they live up to the reputation of the best horsemen in the world.
For what I get, Jaqqa Rhan are not mentioned as a military unit, but as men who finish the wounded after battle and cut the heads of the fallen (perhaps to display them as a way to celebrate victory or to count the number of casualties). From the first book:

“Dothraki hooves had torn the earth and trampled the rye and lentils into the ground, while arakhs and arrows had sown a terrible new crop and watered it with blood. Dying horses lifted their heads and screamed at her as she rode past. Wounded men moaned and prayed. Jaqqa rhan moved among them, the mercy men with their heavy axes, taking a harvest of heads from the dead and dying alike. After them would scurry a flock of small girls, pulling arrows from the corpses to fill their baskets. Last of all the dogs would come sniffing, lean and hungry, the feral pack that was never far behind the khalasar.”

In the books the Dothraki are mentioned having two main tactics: shooting from afar and charging. In the battle of Qohor:

"But when dawn broke and Temmo and his bloodriders led their khalasar out of camp, they found three thousand Unsullied drawn up before the gates with the Black Goat standard flying over their heads. So small a force could easily have been flanked, but you know Dothraki. These were men on foot, and men on foot are fit only to be ridden down.

Eighteen times the Dothraki charged, and broke themselves on those shields and spears like waves on a rocky shore. Thrice Temmo sent his archers wheeling past and arrows fell like rain upon the Three Thousand, but the Unsullied merely lifted their shields above their heads until the squall had passed. In the end only six hundred of them remained . . . but more than twelve thousand Dothraki lay dead upon that field, including Khal Temmo, his bloodriders, his kos, and all his sons. On the morning of the fourth day, the new khal led the survivors past the city gates in a stately procession. One by one, each man cut off his braid and threw it down before the feet of the Three Thousand"

Their main weapons seem to be the bow and the arakh, which is some kind of sabre. No heavy armor, no lancers, I think; we even see some dothraki saying that metal armor is for cowards or something like that. They are basically naked savages that attack screaming and win because they are fearless. Perhaps not the most historical type of troop, but I think that we will all agree that it´s super cool, so...

In the scenarios that I did for Warhammer I displayed the Kurgan, which are a nomad society somewhat close to dothraki, as light spear, above average, 50% bowmen (szecklers in game, if I spelled the name right), with elite troops with superior quality and better armor. Not a perfect solution, since light spear cavalry tend to flee when you want them to stand, but still a possibility. Or you can give them 100% archery. Other will be to make unarmoured lancers to depict their picked troops and give them separate units of horse archers; or to go the mongol route and make them the same units. In the World of Ice and Fire there are some quotes from Dothraki battles, I will extract them because they can provide insight.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by BillLottJr » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:19 pm

would dragons make for interesting battles? I suspect that upshot would be side A has dragons, side B does not, side A wins.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by edb1815 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:38 pm

BillLottJr wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:19 pm
would dragons make for interesting battles? I suspect that upshot would be side A has dragons, side B does not, side A wins.
Good point.

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Geffalrus » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:07 pm

I think technically the way to deal with dragons was ballista (ala the show), and having seen my elephants run off the field by a pesky trebuchet, I can see how that part could work in game. It's just........everything else. :lol:

Maybe the Jaqqa Rhan will be superior unarmored light spear medium horse in small numbers in the main list, and larger number in Danny's army to reflect how decimated her khal was after the chaos of Drogo's death. In other words, the usual proportions won't apply. I'm pretty set on the Dothraki being superior unarmored medium sword horse for now (backed up by light versions). The main thing I'm debating is their shooting characteristics. Superior horse shooting is pretty deadly, especially when they're in mass like these cheap unarmored dudes will be. But I could also see if giving the cavalry the Longbow trait would work - SOLELY - because I've seen a few references to how Dothraki bows are more powerful than Westerosi bows. And because I want to see if that combo is even possible. There's plenty of historical testament to the power of nomadic recurved bows, though I'm not sure how it worked vs. plate armor.

Anyway, we'll see what happens when I devote some time to my mad science experiments........ :twisted:

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Geffalrus » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:11 pm

Newest version added to the main post. Now we have the Stormlands, the Reach, and the Iron Islands. Enjoy the Marcher Lord eye candy while it lasts. :wink:

Thank you Horde and Snugglebunny for your continued help in fleshing out this mod. Here is where my to-do list currently stands:

1) The Vale, the Crownlands, and Dorne.

2) The Marcher Lords and a Riverland vassal unique army list.

3) Journey to Essos - a Dothraki Khal, the Golden Company, Slaver's Bay (Astapor, Yunkai, and Mereen), and Pentos. All generic pre-books armies, though we will mostly be using info - from - the books, so the distinction is muddied.

4) The start of the War of the Five Kings - Robb Stark's army, Tywin's army, Stannis's army, and Renly's army.

5) The war gets messy - Jaime's army, Edmure's army, Roose Bolton's army, Theon/Asha's army, the Sparrow's host.

6) Chaos reigns - Roose Bolton Warden of the North, Stannis in the North, Daenerys before Mereen, the United Slave Masters.

In addition to all that, I need continual help and advice on what units work correctly and what ones don't. I especially need help fine tuning the unit amounts in each army; I'm mostly just guessing at totals and relative amounts, so help in that regard would be big.

Cheers all. And remember, when you play the game of thrones........

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Re: Game of Thrones Mod

Post by Horde » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:11 am

Thanks for your effort!

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