Swedish army 1813

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Scrumpy
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Swedish army 1813

Post by Scrumpy » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:14 am

Any clues allowed as to what the list might look like ?

hazelbark
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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by hazelbark » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:23 pm

Bad troops mostly I imagine. Never turned in a stellar performance in this period.

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by ravenflight » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:26 pm

hazelbark wrote:Bad troops mostly I imagine. Never turned in a stellar performance in this period.
Did they DO anything?

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by hazelbark » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:31 pm

ravenflight wrote:
hazelbark wrote:Bad troops mostly I imagine. Never turned in a stellar performance in this period.
Did they DO anything?
They showed up on the 18th of October at Leipzig.

And I think fought the russians in Finland at one point.

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by david53 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Did'nt 500 of them get captured by the future swedish king. I do remember having a few units of 15mm Jacobite min's if i remember correctly.

Dave

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by bahdahbum » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:40 am

The swedish saw more action than you think even if there is no concensus on the quality .

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military ... harmy.html

http://www.warandgamemsw.com/blog/49316 ... dish-army/

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by Rosen » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:41 am

Hey Guys

First post, had to.

Regarding the Swedish army during the Napoleonic wars it was not as bad as you think, though as mentioned Swedish troops were captured in northern Germany in 1806 by Bernadotte after the Prussian defeats at Jena and Auerstadt. The Swedish King Gustavus IV hated Napoleon and the revolution and declared war against france after the defeats. Some skirmishes were done and eventually the Swedes surrendered Swedish Pomerania. Actually it was only 12000 Swedes (And some retiring Prussians).against the victorious Grande Armee.

1808-1809 War against Russia over Finland. Small but hard battles fought, both sides as victors, the largest battle of oravais approximately 7000 Swedes/Finns against 8000 Russians, losses 1000 each tells us quite stubborn troops on both sides, Russian victory though. Sweden loses Finland 1809 which had been under Swedish rule since 14th century.

Before the war was over Gustavus IV was dethroned by a military coup and his uncle Charles XIII put on the throne (very old man). He had no kids so the government looked for a new Prince abroad. Finally a Swedish officer came to Paris and offered Bernadotte the throne. Napoleon approved, probably seeing a chance to put pressure on the Russians from the north in the future.

Bernadotte reformed the Swedish army after French standards(in game terms it was unreformed before but with good light units and probably flexible since Finland and Sweden mostly are forests). He joined the coalition 1813 with 30000men. He had a problem though, Swedish majority wanted him to join forces with France and get back Finland so he had to be cautious with his army and give the Swedes Norway instead after the war(he invaded Norway 1814 with these troops). The Swedes were mostly in reserve because of this but participated to some extent.

As for the quality famous historian George Nafziger in his 1813 series mentions that the Swedish army may be the best trained or at least equal to the other nations since Sweden hadnt lost as many troops in the war(mostly Finns in 1808-09). Bernadotte reforms should have a significance too. On the other hand their uniforms were in very bad condition so they looked like militia. At Leipzig the Swedish artillery were noted for their ability. Jäger batallions participated in the assault on Leipzig the last day. At Bornhoft Swedish cavalry assaulted a fortified Danish village and routed them without infantry or artillery support. Swedish officer several times pledged to Bernadotte to commit them.

Most wargame rules rate Sweded as average overall.

And yes, I am Swedish(though half Austrian)

Rosen

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by david53 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:37 pm

Who does 15mm Swedes?

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by shadowdragon » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:30 pm

david53 wrote:Who does 15mm Swedes?
That long forgotten standard of past days...Miniature Figurines:

http://www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/Cat ... egoryID=74

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by mellis1644 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:34 pm


david53
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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by david53 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:32 am

shadowdragon wrote:
david53 wrote:Who does 15mm Swedes?
That long forgotten standard of past days...Miniature Figurines:

http://www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/Cat ... egoryID=74

Bought these when i first started out. Has anyone bought any figures from them recently.

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by MikeHorah » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:17 am

We obviously cover 1813 but also the earlier period- the Dano Swedish war and the Russo Swedish war. Swedes and Danes are available in 25mm I am not sure about 15mm. I have drawn on published Scandinavian historians' articles to get a richer perspective than the general hisotrians of this era - like Nafziger - but there are still a lot of technical type questions unanswered for me and one has had to take a view rather than do nothing .

And in 1813 Bernadotte, now Crown Prince, seems to have kept them away from the fire as much as he could - but he was ever thus, was he not, when a Marshal of France? Cautious is the most generous way to describe him! So one cannot be sure that was any reflection on his part as to the Swedish army's abilities. But I think it is pretty safe to say the Swedes in the 19th century were not a patch on their 17th century forbears under Gustavus Adolphus or even the 18th ! Military observers at the time in Germany were not complimentary. We have not been overgenerous for 1813-14. All drilled but no conscript or veteran, most types average but some poor mainly infantry and not much by way of leadership. But you can bolster the army by the addition of an allied Prussian Division in 1813 or a German Confederation Corps division in 1814.

The Russo Swedish is problematic for a Corps level game as forces were relatively small more suited to a scenario and the dano Swedish is lagely hypothetical where big battles area concerned . Again on the Norwegian Swedish border forces were small and the Swedes were beaten back.

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by bahdahbum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:10 am

Funny, curiosity made me check the old "empire" rules and guess what :many veteran units :D but I do not know their sources

Average seems good enough . But why a prussian corps to bolster the sweden . In 1813, they were part of the army of the north with prussian and russian divisions, so a russian corps should also be considered as support .

Swedish units in 1813 where :
( 700 men a bataillon with light companies )
1st division
1st brigade : 2 guard infantry regiments ( 2 or 3 bataillon each ) + 2 bataillons of Leib Guard grenadiers
2nd brigade : 3 infantry regiments ( 2 bataillon each )
2nd division
1st brigade : 3 infantry regiments ( 2 or 3 bataillon each, 2 being the usual )
2nd brigade : 3 infantry regiments ( 2 or 3 bataillon each, 2 being the usual )
Cav arlry division
1st brigade : 2 heavy dragoons regiments , 8 squadron each ( 100 men a squadron )
2nd brigade : 1 cuirassiers regiment ( 4 squadrons ), 2 hussards regiments ( 6 squadron each )

I found no mention of light infantry but there were 2 light infantry regiments and 4 foot chasseurs regiments . Perhaps they were part of the infantry regiments sent in germany, but sources only mention "infantry regiments without more precision so all line or some light ...I do not know .

I do still have old 15mm miniatures ( jacobites ) painted, a whole swedish and a whole danish army .

Hope this helps .

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by Astronomican » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:48 am

bahdahbum wrote:Funny, curiosity made me check the old "empire" rules and guess what :many veteran units
That, as they say in the newspaper industry, is a bit of selective reporting. :)

Empire has 10 levels of troop classification, with 'veteran' being right in the middle of said classifications.

IMHO, this would mean 'average/drilled' in FOG-N.


Jimi

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by bahdahbum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:44 am

You seemed to have missed this : Average seems good enough

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by david53 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:24 pm

While we are at it how were the Danish Army in the period.

Dave

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by MikeHorah » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:55 pm

[quote="bahdahbum"]Average seems good enough . But why a prussian corps to bolster the sweden . In 1813, they were part of the army of the north with prussian and russian divisions, so a russian corps should also be considered as support .

We do allow for/ suggest the creation of combined corps of Austrians Prusians and Russian divisions in late 1813 outwith the specific lists' divisional imports and I see no reason why you cannot add Swedes to that trio except I would say exlcude Austrians from any Swedish mix. You do have to decide who is the Lead nation and so Commander under which all others then count as "allied" which has a downside for Command points - it cost you a CP to give a CP to an allied divisional commander thus using up 2.

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by bahdahbum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:57 pm

As to the quality of the danish soldiers I have nearly no information . In 1813 they form a division of Davout's XIII corps .
- Avant Garde : 3 bataillons of "carabinier" , or light infantry ( 5 companies of +/- 130 men per bataillon ) + a hussard squadron
- 2 brigades of each 3 infantry regiments of, it seems, 2 bataillons each , each bataillon of 5 companies of +/- 130 .
A light Dragoon regiment ( 520 men ) in the division .

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by bahdahbum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:02 pm

We do allow for/ suggest the creation of combined corps of Austrians Prusians and Russian divisions in late 1813 outwith the specific lists' divisional imports and I see no reason why you cannot add Swedes to that trio except I would say exlcude Austrians from any Swedish mix. You do have to decide who is the Lead nation and so Commander under which all others then count as "allied" which has a downside for Command points - it cost you a CP to give a CP to an allied divisional commander thus using up 2.
One must admit that during the saxony campaign of 1813, the french where opposed mostly by combined armies .

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Re: Swedish army 1813

Post by MikeHorah » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:13 pm

The thing is were they combined Corps in any given instance and to what extent ? There is a difference.

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