Clash of Empires

General discussion forum for anything related to Field of Glory Renaissance Wars.

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nosher
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Clash of Empires

Post by nosher » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:54 pm

Anyone got theirs yet?

I got a polite email from Amazon saying there's an issue with the supplier with no indication of when delivery might take place? I have cancelled my pre-order and against my better judgement I have ordered another set from Caliver (been bitten on the arse more than once by them with poor service/faulty goods). Here's hoping they redeem what has otherwise been a pretty poor showing to date.

navigator
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Post by navigator » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:19 pm

have done the same= caliver only a £1 more for a real book delivered hopefully in next couple of days.........

nickdives
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Post by nickdives » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:13 am

I have had an email to say it has been posted, from Slitherine, my 15mm Poles are getting ready to go, only one more coat of varnish required!

quackstheking
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Post by quackstheking » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:46 pm

I've given up on Amazon for new releases - their organisation seems to be slow at recognising niche releases and they set a low priority at getting the book out (if it was the new Harry Potter you can bet your last pound that it would be on your doorstep on the day of release!).

I cancelled my Amazon order and ordered yesterday from Caliver Books and was rewarded with a brand new copy dropping onto my door mat via 1st Class Post this lunchtime.

As I type my Poles are sharpening their lances and preening their wings and my Ottomans are getting ready to strike fear into the Empire yet again!! The lists look great - just a shame that the later Poles will be in Book 5 - however the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth suits perfectly even though muskets don't come in till 1611 in the shape of German mercenary infantry. On the other who plays the Poles to be a shooty army? - wind up the Hussars and let them go!!!! In theory you can have 24 bases of Hussars but at 23pts a pop, thats 552 points before generals (however if you were to cut back to the minumum other compulsorys thats only 56 points).

However - you probably won't win much but it will be brief and glorious (and ultimately futile!)


Don

khurasan_miniatures
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Post by khurasan_miniatures » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:35 pm

Do the rules make the Polish Husarian Komrads supermen?

They were certainly superb and formidable cavalry, but a sort of cult has developed around them. Richard Brzezinski tried to write an objective book about them that did not follow Received Opinion and he's been fiercely attacked for it by the Cult of the Husarian.

(I write this as someone who has and loves a Siege of Vienna Polish army.)

I know the rules have taken a very objective and revisionist (in the best sense) look at the Montrose Scots, so I wonder what the result will be regarding the winged chaps.

Maniakes
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Post by Maniakes » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:01 pm

They have a POA up against pistol horse at impact but are then a POA down in melee unless they have disrupted them (because the hussars have sword not pistol). It seems to me that the best way to use them would be in a checkerboard with Pancerni - shoot opponents to disrupted then charge in with the hussars. Might even reflect historical usage. Having said that I took the Poles to a beta competition and got soundly thrashed because I didn't have an answer to Pike and Shot foot - so what do I know!

Maniakes
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Post by Maniakes » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:05 pm

I should say the husar armed with sword thing is based on the beta lists - my copy of Clash of Empires hasn't arrived yet.

nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:07 pm

It is, however, correct 8)
Nik Gaukroger

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If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

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timmy1
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Post by timmy1 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:48 pm

Maniakes

Except in one game... where you ripped my Swedes apart on a Billiard table... going through my DH like they were not there.

VictorJ
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Post by VictorJ » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:23 am

But didn't the hussars have pistols aswell, that would be used after their lance shattered? If this is not reflected in the lists, it would be dissapointing.

nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:46 am

They did indeed carry a pistol, or pistols, however, I believe the sword was favoured after the lance had been shattered - and giving the Swordsmen capability seems to get the best effect to boot. See also the usual comments about having a weapon does not necessarily mean you get a capability.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

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DanielS
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Post by DanielS » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:37 am

Nik is correct, the husaria did indeed favour using the sabre after the lance had shattered, particularly as it was possible to carry the sabre hanging from the wrist using a sword knot during a charge. Drawing a pistol would be far harder and more time consuming and put the user at even greater disadvantage in the melee. The pistol seems to have been rather unpopular with the husaria, Swedish combat reports seldom mention the pistol in use, for example when a husar attacked Gustavus outside Dirschau in 1627 he used the sabre rather than a pistol and at the battle of Honigfelde 1629 the Swedes suffered numerous wounded from sabre cuts, particularly head wounds due to many Swedish troopers not wearing their helmets.

The Polish husaria area classic example of good troops who look even better because they often fight inferior enemies, much like for example GNW Swedes. Add in that there has been a stong tendency to ignore or explain away set backs and less than sterling performance and you have the apperance of super soldiers... For example the "kopia" (lance) carried by the husaria was a highly effective weapon against unarmoured or lightly armoured enemies, it wreaked havoc among the unarmoured Swedish cavalry fighting in the Livonian war in the early 1600's. But it's hollow and fragile design made it an inferior weapon against plate armour, much worse than the solid lances favoured by western lancers. Once the Swedish cavalry started wearing armour and learned to stand up to the charge the combat reports change. At Dirschau 1627 even eyewitnesses on the Polish side like Chemnitz reported how badly the lances did against armour and at Treiden in Livonia Fieldmarshal Horn noted with pride how a Finnish squadron overran Lithuanian husars even though these broke every lance as they charged home.

And you seldom find in print the descriptions of husaria beign badly armed and armoured. fleeing in panic and throwing away their lances, refusing to charge, leaving advantageous positions due to infantry or artillery fire yet these things can be found in the sources. As troops they were a lot more varied than most army lists make them out to be. Well trained and experienced regulars like the Kwarciane was one thing, hastily raised local units another.

VictorJ
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Post by VictorJ » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:44 am

Though I can't see why the hussars should be at a POA disadvantage vs pistols in melee.

If drawing pistols, according to Daniels post, put the user at a distadvantage in melee, why would they get higher POA's in FOGR?

Maniakes
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Post by Maniakes » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:00 am

timmy1 wrote:Maniakes

Except in one game... where you ripped my Swedes apart on a Billiard table... going through my DH like they were not there.
Historically speaking, very satisfying :D

Maniakes
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Post by Maniakes » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:05 am

DanielS wrote: Once the Swedish cavalry started wearing armour and learned to stand up to the charge the combat reports change. At Dirschau 1627 even eyewitnesses on the Polish side like Chemnitz reported how badly the lances did against armour and at Treiden in Livonia Fieldmarshal Horn noted with pride how a Finnish squadron overran Lithuanian husars even though these broke every lance as they charged home.
I don't know what your view is on this but I had understood that the Swedes beat the husars when they started attaching commanded shot to the Swedish horse. That would be reflected in FOG:R where commanded shot will give the Swedes the edge (Timmy1 might like to make a note this!)

timmy1
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Post by timmy1 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:07 am

Maniakes

I DID have commanded shot with my DH, that's what made me feel so bad!

Maniakes
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Post by Maniakes » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:19 am

VictorJ wrote:Though I can't see why the hussars should be at a POA disadvantage vs pistols in melee.
"Sword" has some very particular properties in FOG. If the pistol is disrupted the sword is a plus POA and if not it is a minus. So if the husars win big at impact and disrupt their opponent (or catch a disrupted opponent) they will probably sweep them away in the melee- as Timmy1 found!. If the initial charge isn't effective they will struggle. From a "top-down" perspective (ie not worrying too much about exactly when they pull out which weapon) that sounds right

timmy1
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Post by timmy1 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:21 am

Agree.

I am waiting for the final Polish list to appear in my post box.

Maniakes
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Post by Maniakes » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:21 am

timmy1 wrote:Maniakes

I DID have commanded shot with my DH, that's what made me feel so bad!
:oops: Forgot that bit - it all went by so fast :D

timmy1
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Post by timmy1 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:22 am

They were not there very long so I can understand why you might not have noticed them...

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