Detached shot put to good use

General discussion forum for anything related to Field of Glory Renaissance Wars.

Moderators: hammy, Slitherine Core, FOGR Design, hammy, Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Post by timmy1 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:02 pm

No idea - mine will.

deadtorius
General - Elite King Tiger
General - Elite King Tiger
Posts: 4176
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:41 am

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by deadtorius » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:14 am

Detaching shot rules does not specify any dates so I guess they could. Seeing as pikes were on the way out why not?

Moro
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 355
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 9:06 am
Location: Rome, caput mundi

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by Moro » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:13 pm

Hallo all!
From my point of view, the true asset of having some all MF musket/bayonet units is that you can play many nasty terrains and thus block any not outstanding mounted wing and have more control over the battlefield than the opponent.
Saving some points is not such an advantage, because you must field a terrible only pike unit.
Moreover, you must field 12 units of pike&shot... not many army can or have not more suitable units.
I made it with the colonial dutch because I wanted to field a strong contingent of impact foot/swordman warband, trying to offset their inherently weakness aganst mounted enemies...

quackstheking
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
Posts: 844
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:41 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, England

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by quackstheking » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:39 pm

I think it's clear the rules allow it (and it is a good option).

However was it really historical this late in the period or are we looking to stretch what the rules allow?! ( a bit like detaching Longbow and arquebus from Elizabethan foot units!
.

Don

daveallen
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 542
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:21 am

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by daveallen » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:02 pm

a bit like detaching Longbow and arquebus from Elizabethan foot units!
So, perfectly historical* then.

* See Sir John Norris at the battle of Rymenant, 1578, where he took the shot of his regiment and lined the hedges between the Dutch and the river. :shock:

Dave
Last edited by daveallen on Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

deadtorius
General - Elite King Tiger
General - Elite King Tiger
Posts: 4176
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:41 am

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by deadtorius » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:40 am

Did not see any date restrictions in the rules, so perhaps it did happen occasionally. Pikes were definitely on the way out so why not detach some shot since all shot was the wave of the near future anyway? :wink:

flamingpig0
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:56 am

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by flamingpig0 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:56 pm

Can anyone point to a battle in the 1690's where shot was detached?

shadowdragon
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by shadowdragon » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:04 am

flamingpig0 wrote:Can anyone point to a battle in the 1690's where shot was detached?
The rules are about "detaching shot" but by the 1690's when the proportion of pike was so small, it would be more correct to refer to the pike being detached, or more than likely, left behind. Whilst I can't think of a particular instance the very fact that pike disappears implies that one way or another pike were "detached".

deadtorius
General - Elite King Tiger
General - Elite King Tiger
Posts: 4176
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:41 am

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by deadtorius » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:59 am

makes sense if you think about it.
Perhaps the historical chronologists forgot to mention it or it was considered too trivial a point to go into when it did happen :wink:

Three
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:30 pm

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by Three » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:33 pm

shadowdragon wrote:
flamingpig0 wrote:Can anyone point to a battle in the 1690's where shot was detached?
The rules are about "detaching shot" but by the 1690's when the proportion of pike was so small, it would be more correct to refer to the pike being detached, or more than likely, left behind. Whilst I can't think of a particular instance the very fact that pike disappears implies that one way or another pike were "detached".
Perhaps, but equally, can anyone show a battle in the 1690s where the Pike were massed ? I don't really have a problem with the general idea of detaching, but I'm struggling to see it's historical basis, on the battlefield, in the 1690s. Pike were retained because the plug bayonet alone wasn't considered to provide adequate protection for musket armed infantry on its own, that came about after the widespread adoption of the socket bayonet. The rules appear to allow it, but the way it works in game terms just doesn't sit well with me. That might also be because I don't think of anything post 1660 as being in the "Renaissance" period :roll:

shadowdragon
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by shadowdragon » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:39 pm

Three wrote:
shadowdragon wrote:
flamingpig0 wrote:Can anyone point to a battle in the 1690's where shot was detached?
The rules are about "detaching shot" but by the 1690's when the proportion of pike was so small, it would be more correct to refer to the pike being detached, or more than likely, left behind. Whilst I can't think of a particular instance the very fact that pike disappears implies that one way or another pike were "detached".
Perhaps, but equally, can anyone show a battle in the 1690s where the Pike were massed ? I don't really have a problem with the general idea of detaching, but I'm struggling to see it's historical basis, on the battlefield, in the 1690s. Pike were retained because the plug bayonet alone wasn't considered to provide adequate protection for musket armed infantry on its own, that came about after the widespread adoption of the socket bayonet. The rules appear to allow it, but the way it works in game terms just doesn't sit well with me. That might also be because I don't think of anything post 1660 as being in the "Renaissance" period :roll:
I think the main point is if it's worth creating a separate rule to prevent players from doing something of questionable advantage. Sure they get cheaper shot but at the price of a pointless pike unit that's more or less a target in a sea of muskets. Of course, it's different in tournaments where the 1690's army might be playing against a 16th century army, but that's an artifact of tournament play.

The rules don't really include the effect of socket bayonets. My interest isn't so much the 1690's but early 18th century. I'm switched over to using FoGR for the War of the Spanish Succession (WSS). Most changes have been handled by army lists, but I find that it is necessary to count troops armed with socket bayonets as "protected" as suggested by RBS. I'm inclined to give defending steady WSS shot a +1 POA at impact mostly to deter troops charging into melee until the enemy is disordered. I was thinking of allowing shot in villages to fire in two ranks but I'm now favouring allowing an army to fortify the edge of villages so that troops immediately behind are treated as in cover and in the open (i.e., steady and can fire in 3 ranks). I think that might give a better result and I can't think of an occasion where villages were strong points and not prepared for defence.

As for "detaching" pike the reason I put the term in quotations is that if there is a reference they would have actually mentioned "leaving behind" or "abandoning" their pikes for which there are references. At the battle of Steinkirk, French pikemen dropped their pikes to pick up the firearms of fallen comrades. But massed pikes? Well there weren't enough left by that time to be "massed" and as mentioned they'd primarily be targets.

However, back to the original point. Is it really worth another rule just to prevent players from doing it? There are probably numerous things players can do with the armies that are allowed by the rules / lists that have no historical precedence. I just don't see the value of creating a lot of rule exceptions to prevent these unless the player "tactic" unbalances the game for either tournaments or historical play.

Three
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:30 pm

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by Three » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:49 pm

I think the main point is if it's worth creating a separate rule to prevent players from doing something of questionable advantage.
There isn't a requirement to create a separate rule, just add in a cut-off date to the existing one :wink:

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by bahdahbum » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:05 pm

And I only wanted to point out a good use of detached shot :D

shadowdragon
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by shadowdragon » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:52 pm

bahdahbum wrote:And I only wanted to point out a good use of detached shot :D
Protesting won't work, bahdahbum. You're already a noted troublemaker. :D :D :D

Moro
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 355
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 9:06 am
Location: Rome, caput mundi

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by Moro » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:55 am

Really I do not know how historically worked pikes in 1690's. However, I think the detached shot rule It is not well playtested rule. At least for tournaments, I think It's better to forbid his use...

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by timmy1 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:54 am

Moro

It actually works quite well in torunaments. It allows armies a degree of deployment flexibility and so makes for better games. I say this as someone who has not won a single one of my 16 games in competition...

kadeshuk
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:10 pm

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by kadeshuk » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:17 am

Good point,but at this date it was surely the grenadier companies that were detatched which atre treated as musket bayonet. Perhaps the later lists should allow only 1 stan per unit?

daveallen
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 542
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:21 am

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by daveallen » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:21 pm

kadeshuk wrote:Good point,but at this date it was surely the grenadier companies that were detatched which atre treated as musket bayonet. Perhaps the later lists should allow only 1 stan per unit?
You always have that option, although it would then be a nightmare getting the APs to balance.

Effectively, in the 1690s you are leaving pike behind to enable you to operate in terrain. The residual pike unit is just a quirk in the rules and, frankly, not much use except to support guns. Which might have been what happened???

Dave

PS At Central London we find it best to allow no more than 1 Stan per army :)

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by timmy1 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:33 pm

What have Central London got against people called Stan?

daveallen
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 542
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:21 am

Re: Detached shot put to good use

Post by daveallen » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:41 pm

timmy1 wrote:What have Central London got against people called Stan?
Nothing, except our Stan is a force of nature and the idea of more than one in an army is too terrifying to contemplate! :evil:

Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory : Renaissance Wars : General Discussion”