Keils - Official Discussion Thread

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grahambriggs
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Re: Keils - Official Discussion Thread

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:00 am

I think it would be good to make that explicit Nik.

The other thing with Keil that really needs clarification is the mixed troops issue. For example. An early Swiss Keil is up to 2 bases of heavy weapon the rest pike, all determined foot. Say there are 16 in all in a 3 wide, 5 and 6 deep column with the HW at the back. They charge in and in the movement phase 'pop out' a heavy weapon chap to give an overlap at ++

All very much as played and intended. But

They are all DF troop type. The formation rules allow BGS with different troop types to do this but not the same troop type. I think it should say different capabilities

The second issue is that they opped out only one of the HW bases. But the mixed BG rule says different troop types still need to be in a rectangle. So did I need to pop out two?

nikgaukroger
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Re: Keils - Official Discussion Thread

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:01 pm

grahambriggs wrote:I think it would be good to make that explicit Nik.
I think you're right :)

The other thing with Keil that really needs clarification is the mixed troops issue. For example. An early Swiss Keil is up to 2 bases of heavy weapon the rest pike, all determined foot. Say there are 16 in all in a 3 wide, 5 and 6 deep column with the HW at the back. They charge in and in the movement phase 'pop out' a heavy weapon chap to give an overlap at ++

All very much as played and intended. But

They are all DF troop type. The formation rules allow BGS with different troop types to do this but not the same troop type. I think it should say different capabilities

The second issue is that they popped out only one of the HW bases. But the mixed BG rule says different troop types still need to be in a rectangle. So did I need to pop out two?
Think I see what you are getting at. So they may need a rule that effectively says that as long as they are feeding bases into a melee they can adopt an otherwise illegal formation?

Along with something that is categorical about the Swiss Kiel 4-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-4 formation?
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

Three
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Re: Keils - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Three » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:28 am

Does a later Keil with shot wings count the disadvantages of being flank charged if the shot wing only is the part subject of the flank charge?

What if the shot wing is contacted and the charger steps forward and also contacts the pike section?

timmy1
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Re: Keils - Official Discussion Thread

Post by timmy1 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:58 pm

Three

It is the keil. Shot wings are just a representation.

Three
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Re: Keils - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Three » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:15 am

Thanks, so in essence it's a Tercio without the advantage of the extra shooting to the side.

timmy1
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Re: Keils - Official Discussion Thread

Post by timmy1 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:27 am

Sadly there is an additional very important difference. ET don't count flank/rear charges rather than just flank charges. The Keil with shot wings usually ends up charged from the rear and that's goodnight. ETs really are like fortresses.

Buzz0000
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Re: Keils - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Buzz0000 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:04 pm

The OWS will be hosting a FOG-R "any army list with minimum 2 x Keils" competition on March 8th. This prompted a revisiting of the excellent original guidance from Graham Briggs (some years ago) for those not familiar with Keils. I will be happy to send a .pdf copy to anyone who would like this - please PM me or send email to david_s_burrows@hotmail.com Thanks

Buzz0000
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Re: Keils - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Buzz0000 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:27 pm

Today was the OWS "Kiels" event - won by Don with his Swiss! Anyone want a copy of the Keils guidance, please met me know.

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