The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

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madaxeman
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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by madaxeman » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:50 am

Swedish Brigades:

Now they don't count armoured to long range shooting, is there anything else they are capable of that justifies the +4 on the cost of each BG?

The "count as 7 bases to shooting" is arguably already covered by the cost of the additional base, and both Superior and Average Swedish Brigades also both break at the same number of losses as a standard 6-pack, so the "counts as 7 to shooting" (before they lose a base) is now the only actual benefit that the extra base (and its points cost) now brings them.
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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by ravenflight » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:40 am

madaxeman wrote:Swedish Brigades:

Now they don't count armoured to long range shooting, is there anything else they are capable of that justifies the +4 on the cost of each BG?

The "count as 7 bases to shooting" is arguably already covered by the cost of the additional base, and both Superior and Average Swedish Brigades also both break at the same number of losses as a standard 6-pack, so the "counts as 7 to shooting" (before they lose a base) is now the only actual benefit that the extra base (and its points cost) now brings them.
I can see what you are saying, and I guess mostly agree. There is a huge advantage to that 7th base, but I guess it does cost points. I'd like to see some play testing for it before I'd make the change though.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by MatteoPasi » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:34 pm

madaxeman wrote:Swedish Brigades:

Now they don't count armoured to long range shooting, is there anything else they are capable of that justifies the +4 on the cost of each BG?

The "count as 7 bases to shooting" is arguably already covered by the cost of the additional base, and both Superior and Average Swedish Brigades also both break at the same number of losses as a standard 6-pack, so the "counts as 7 to shooting" (before they lose a base) is now the only actual benefit that the extra base (and its points cost) now brings them.
The 3rd pike base doesn't give the enfilande to artillery also. If I can shoot at sw. brigade at 4+ the +4pt are to be deleted, at present, HIMO, the fact that I need 3 hits to force test and their anti arty rule still require somo addittional cost :)

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by madaxeman » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:19 pm

madaxeman wrote:Swedish Brigades:

Now they don't count armoured to long range shooting, is there anything else they are capable of that justifies the +4 on the cost of each BG?

The "count as 7 bases to shooting" is arguably already covered by the cost of the additional base, and both Superior and Average Swedish Brigades also both break at the same number of losses as a standard 6-pack, so the "counts as 7 to shooting" (before they lose a base) is now the only actual benefit that the extra base (and its points cost) now brings them.
MatteoPasi wrote:The 3rd pike base doesn't give the enfilande to artillery also.
The only other troops to whom this applies in a normal formation is Later Tercios, who get an "advantage" of being self-supporting in "exchange" for the "disadvantage" of being +4 to artillery.

If Swedish Brigades counted as 3 ranks for artillery they would probably need a points reduction as being in 3 ranks would only be a disadvantage !
MatteoPasi wrote: If I can shoot at sw. brigade at 4+ the +4pt are to be deleted, at present, HIMO, the fact that I need 3 hits to force test and their anti arty rule still require somo addittional cost :)
"3 hits to cause a test" is covered by the cost of the additional base to make the unit up to 7 bases. That extra base has no other effect on game play that I can see.
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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by Jhykronos » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:42 am

madaxeman wrote: "3 hits to cause a test" is covered by the cost of the additional base to make the unit up to 7 bases. That extra base has no other effect on game play that I can see.
Don't have my rules with me, but don't they still have to lose 2 bases of pike before losing any shot? I remember checking the rules back when they made the armor change to see if Swedish Brigade still had any effect, and the only thing I remember finding was something in the stand loss priority.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by madaxeman » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:30 am

Aaah - that may well be true as well. Good spot.

Although, as "salvo" shot the impact on their shooting ability of losing one base of shot is to immediately halve their shooting all ranges, whereas normal shot are halved at long range but only reduced by 25% at short range. So it's still somewhat of a mixed blessing.

Still the same question though - do these 2 additional capabilities (no test on 2 hits when intact, can lose 2 bases without losing a shot base) make a Swedish brigade worth 17% more than a normal (including Later Swedish Salvo) 6-pack, or worth 17% + 4 points more .. ?
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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by ravenflight » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:37 am

madaxeman wrote:Aaah - that may well be true as well. Good spot.

Although, as "salvo" shot the impact on their shooting ability of losing one base of shot is to immediately halve their shooting all ranges, whereas normal shot are halved at long range but only reduced by 25% at short range. So it's still somewhat of a mixed blessing.

Still the same question though - do these 2 additional capabilities (no test on 2 hits when intact, can lose 2 bases without losing a shot base) make a Swedish brigade worth 17% more than a normal (including Later Swedish Salvo) 6-pack, or worth 17% + 4 points more .. ?
Well, from a Louis XIV perspective, the Salvo Foot would be at an advantage for similar points. They shoot the same and the Salvo are a POA up. In the first casualty, they are equal, both take a pike. In the second casualty (at long range) the Salvo get to take a second pike (which I admit they have paid for) but the Louis XIV need to take a shot. From then on the Salvo are at an advantage, which would then bring about the same issue we were trying to avoid with the Swedish Brigade not closing. It would be better (against Louis XIV (or even TYW French)) for them to stand off and out shoot.

Even against regular P&S they would benefit from standing off as they will (with equal numbers and dice rolls) start to out shoot the regular P&S

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by madaxeman » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:02 am

I think that's actually a different question - "what encourages Swedes to close to combat" (other than being +1 in impact of course). Losing the 2nd base doesn't help encourage that for sure, however having used them quite a few times now I'm increasingly of the opinion that whilst the Salvo is of course great, you actually need to be able to pretty much break the enemy at Impact to get value from it - which means waiting until the enemy are at least DISR or down a base before you go in. If the Swedes just charge forwards into a solid line of enemy steady infantry the benefit of salvo is not decisive in itself.. after which you are in a slogging match in which you've paid for an extra base per unit that contributes almost nothing at all.

Swedish Brigades were also a TYW phenomenon too, so the real comparison to Louis XIV would surely be with Later Swedish Salvo 6-packs... who lose Pike and Shot bases in the same way as a normal 6-pack and essentially the same as a French 5+1 (which can also lose one base with no loss of shooting capability, then halves its long range capability at the 2nd loss). Swedes in period with the French therefore do have more incentive to close to combat than those in the TYW would do.
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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by MatteoPasi » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:15 am

In recent competitions there where as many Early Swedish (Swedish Brigade) than Late Swedish (standard S&P) so It looks like players estimate that the point cost is fair :)
Matteo

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by gibby » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:38 am

Yes, but that may be down to what figures people have instead of an actual preference between Early and Late.

I have used both this year and enjoyed using both for different reasons. However I think with the Later Swedes, I can get a better balanced army and using 6 foot units as I do means I save about 60 points over the earlies and in effect gives me an additional fighting unit.

cheers
Jim

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by madaxeman » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:43 am

gibby wrote:Yes, but that may be down to what figures people have instead of an actual preference between Early and Late.

I have used both this year and enjoyed using both for different reasons. However I think with the Later Swedes, I can get a better balanced army and using 6 foot units as I do means I save about 60 points over the earlies and in effect gives me an additional fighting unit.

cheers
Jim
Agreed - that's the exact thought process I'd been having as well. Why pay for an extra base and an extra +4 points per BG to have early Swedes when the later ones are only marginally less effective, but maybe as much as 20% cheaper per unit?
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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by Three » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:44 pm

ravenflight wrote:
madaxeman wrote:Aaah - that may well be true as well. Good spot.

Although, as "salvo" shot the impact on their shooting ability of losing one base of shot is to immediately halve their shooting all ranges, whereas normal shot are halved at long range but only reduced by 25% at short range. So it's still somewhat of a mixed blessing.

Still the same question though - do these 2 additional capabilities (no test on 2 hits when intact, can lose 2 bases without losing a shot base) make a Swedish brigade worth 17% more than a normal (including Later Swedish Salvo) 6-pack, or worth 17% + 4 points more .. ?
Well, from a Louis XIV perspective, the Salvo Foot would be at an advantage for similar points. They shoot the same and the Salvo are a POA up. In the first casualty, they are equal, both take a pike. In the second casualty (at long range) the Salvo get to take a second pike (which I admit they have paid for) but the Louis XIV need to take a shot. From then on the Salvo are at an advantage, which would then bring about the same issue we were trying to avoid with the Swedish Brigade not closing. It would be better (against Louis XIV (or even TYW French)) for them to stand off and out shoot.

Even against regular P&S they would benefit from standing off as they will (with equal numbers and dice rolls) start to out shoot the regular P&S
Salvo only ever shoot with 1 dice per 2 bases, irrespective of the range. So the ES and the TYW/LXIV French have parity at long range, but if the French close to short range (assuming no losses) then they have 3 dice v 2 for the ES, so the ES only have parity if they have a reg gun attached and the French don't. A normal 6 base P&S will also have 2 dice at long range then 4 at short, so twice as many as the ES (assuming no RGs).

The ES can take off a pike base as 1st casualty but normally the French will lose a shot base as the 1st casualty from shooting (proportionality rule - on the assumption that artillery fire/casualties are excluded) - so again it's parity between them at both long and short range after they both lose a base from shooting. On balance I'm of the opinion that the +4 points for the Swedes are not worth it.

Now, closely related is the classification of the commanded shot as salvo as well - I reckon I could live with the +4 for the Swedish Brigade if the commanded shot were classed as muskets and not salvo. The changes to commanded shot to prevent their ahistorical use are understandable, but the compulsory Swedish commanded shot are more of a hindrance than a help.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by MatteoPasi » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:59 pm

Three wrote:
ravenflight wrote: Now, closely related is the classification of the commanded shot as salvo as well - I reckon I could live with the +4 for the Swedish Brigade if the commanded shot were classed as muskets and not salvo. The changes to commanded shot to prevent their ahistorical use are understandable, but the compulsory Swedish commanded shot are more of a hindrance than a help.
I agree

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by madaxeman » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:40 pm

MatteoPasi wrote:
Three wrote:
ravenflight wrote: Now, closely related is the classification of the commanded shot as salvo as well - I reckon I could live with the +4 for the Swedish Brigade if the commanded shot were classed as muskets and not salvo. The changes to commanded shot to prevent their ahistorical use are understandable, but the compulsory Swedish commanded shot are more of a hindrance than a help.
I agree
I think we've discussed this in another thread - its starting to veer away from a discussion about points values too. Anyway, ignoring all of that having the commanded shot as, erm, shot rather than salvo shot would make them more effective than currently, as they would get 2 dice at close range rather than one. As they can't charge anyway their salvo "benefit" currently only comes into effect if enemy infantry choose to charge them. So, oddly enough, having them as salvo who are unable to charge does a reasonable job of limiting them to their historical usage (supporting horse) almost by accident IMO.

You do also need to add the gun to make them decent shooters, but that then makes each unit fantastically expensive, and hence rare.
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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by alasdair2204 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:52 pm

Hi everyone

away from Swedish Brigade and back onto another old chestnut, determined horse, I decided to try them at britcon and they worked in a fashion though I didn't get to play either Hunter or Simon who had the conventional German list to see how that went which was a great shame, having used both types of mounted now (previously tend to only use Horse or Cavalry) I think they are definitely overpriced but not by to much as they are more effective against foot than horse.

My suggestions would be

Superior Heavily armoured Horse and superior unarmoured determined horse both at 16 points and work from there

just my thoughts

cheers

Alasdair

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by Jhykronos » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:42 am

alasdair2204 wrote: Superior Heavily armoured Horse and superior unarmoured determined horse both at 16 points and work from there
I'm assuming that's 16 for the Pistol/Pistol incarnation, not the base cost which would be 13.

So if we keep the marginal cost of armor the same, Superior horse would be 13/10/8 (Heavily armored/ armored/ unarmored). Superior Determined horse would be 16/13 (Armored/Unarmored).
Superior to Elite is currently a 20% upgrade on the base value, so Elite Horse at 16/12/10 and Elite Determined Horse at 19/16.
Average to Superior is rather a strange jump in the current rules, being 50% (generally rounded down) for most types, but 66.67% for unarmored determined horse. Given the average types need all the help they can get, I'll normalize at the largest cost difference, so Horse would be 8/6/5 and determined horse 10/8.
Poor to Average is another 50% jump, so Horse would be 5/4/3 and Determined Horse 7/5.

Get rid of the extra point for cavalry (heck, if anything give a discount to cavalry who can't evade), Keep Cavaliers at 1 point less than determined horse, and that pretty much resolves all non-gendarme mounted.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by alasdair2204 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:20 am

So to expand on last comment (this refers all to superiors)

Armoured Determined Horse Pistol Pistol 19 Points

Heavily Armoured Horse Pistol Pistol & Unarmoured Determined Horse Pistol Pistol 16 points

I would also bring the impact mounted cost down, re cavalry I would be happy to bring cost down but more than understand Richards philosophy of the rules which makes the newer style of warfare more effective

anyway just my thoughts have played with determined horse for the first time properly at Britcon

cheers

Alasdair

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by Jhykronos » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:53 am

alasdair2204 wrote:So to expand on last comment (this refers all to superiors)

Armoured Determined Horse Pistol Pistol 19 Points

Heavily Armoured Horse Pistol Pistol & Unarmoured Determined Horse Pistol Pistol 16 points
Yeah, that's what I have above if you add the 3 points for impact and melee pistol.
I would also bring the impact mounted cost down,
Yeah, something always seemed out of whack when impact pistol cost 1, carbine 2, and impact mounted 3. At those rates, impact pistol is a no-brainer.
re cavalry I would be happy to bring cost down but more than understand Richards philosophy of the rules which makes the newer style of warfare more effective
I have no problem with the rules bias toward "modern" troop capabilities, but the points system should reflect overall utility, period. Otherwise, why even bother having a points system?

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by ravenflight » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:32 am

Jhykronos wrote:I have no problem with the rules bias toward "modern" troop capabilities, but the points system should reflect overall utility, period. Otherwise, why even bother having a points system?
I'm with you on this. I often wonder WHY we have to keep the points system so low. I mean, there is no reason why you can't have games worth eight hundred million points and a musketeer worth eight million. That allows you to niggle things up and down on a lower gradient. People seem to have a problem with bow armed highlanders costing .25 of a point less to reflect that they don't remove armour from close combat opponents so it's a whole point or nothing. If you made the points 10 times what they are now, you could make them 1,2 or 3 points cheaper and keep peoples comfort levels with whole numbers.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by Jhykronos » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:27 pm

Interesting that the points system used in Pike and Shot, which is identical to FOG-R for most units*, gives the determined horse a noticeable discount from the tabletop version.

(*) Looks like some units are costed different due to a different classification, and others due to more granularity in some of the ratings in that game (Highly Superior anyone?).

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