Orcs and Goblins

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davekhan
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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:03 pm

ravenflight wrote:Orcs are not a "Warband Army" per se, as they are not human.

I suppose that might depend upon interpretations of Orcs, but typically Tolkien describes them as being numerous and poor quality troops.

That what the romans thought about us Britons :) /gauls and Spanish

Armies that where Warband types had good morale as a hole in fact in v2 of the rule you can have up to 1/3 as superior you should read it some time .

Well my troop would be out classed and numerous to your Uber ELF B.G of 158pts per to my 84pts orc warband so is that a match up in your eyes

happy gaming davekhan

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by ravenflight » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:46 am

davekhan wrote:
ravenflight wrote:Orcs are not a "Warband Army" per se, as they are not human.

I suppose that might depend upon interpretations of Orcs, but typically Tolkien describes them as being numerous and poor quality troops.

That what the romans thought about us Britons :) /gauls and Spanish

Armies that where Warband types had good morale as a hole in fact in v2 of the rule you can have up to 1/3 as superior you should read it some time .

Well my troop would be out classed and numerous to your Uber ELF B.G of 158pts per to my 84pts orc warband so is that a match up in your eyes

happy gaming davekhan
Please use the 'quote' system correctly - I did not say the above.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:37 am

sorry ravenflight
Not sure what happen there :oops:


that quote should be for MatthewB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:27 am

And Orcs SHOULD be outclassed by elves.

Notice that in the chapter of LotR where Sam is invading Cirith Ungol that the Orc who thinks he is an Elven Warrior absolutely shits himself.

And that Orc was a Morgul Uruk-Hai.

Going further back, Glorfindel, in the First Age during the Sack of Goldolin wasn't anything special when it came to the Elves who were members of the Gondolin Army. He was a member of an Elite Unit.

But Glorfindel managed to not just fight off a group of dragons during the escape from Gondolin, while guiding the population to the escape tunnels made by Tuor and Idril due to their prophetic dreams, but he then takes on a Balrog and manages to kill it (although, it does kill him).

And he isn't the only Elf to commonly do things like that.

The Noldorin and other Elves had senses that allowed them to see things not visible to humans, their reactions were vastly faster, they were stronger than humans, more resilient, more durable and resistant to extremes of temperature, had some sort of strange connection to each other that went beyond communication with words. And then the Noldorin had lived about 1,000,000 years (or more) before they returned to Middle-earth in the First Age. At first they were less experienced fighters, but they managed to beat off Morgoth's attacks when they landed, and then chased him back into Angband just a few months after setting up camp.

They are not "human" at all.

That does make gaming them a bit difficult, but classing them as Superior, Armored, Drilled, Heavy Foot is no worse than the Republican Romans, or some of the Byzantines who can be classed exactly the same (Principate Romans can have Mixed BGs of Superior, Armored, Drilled, Heavy foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen backed by Superior, Protected, Drilled, Light Foot - Bow in BGs of 12). In fact, they can have up to four of those BGs. The same number that is possible in the Elf Lists I have for the Noldorin in the Second and Third Age (in the First Age, they would be able to have many more than just those four. Turgon brought 10,000 Elves armed in Plate with Spears and Axes to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. They were also accompanied by a several groups of Knights, and support troops (Archers I believe).

The sons of Fëanor collectively brought a Quarter of a Million such troops to the same battle.

True, this was pretty much the largest battle ever fought in Middle-earth. But the only thing that Morgoth had that could go head-to-head on even terms with these troops were the Boldoeg and Balrogs (Dragons were still incubating at this point, and Glaurung got his ass handed to him for trying to fight when he was still not mature).

So why should I care if a BG of 12 bases of Orcs is no match for a BG of 12 bases of Elves?

That's sort of like expecting the Principate Legionnaires mentioned above being matched by a BG of 12 bases of Early Germans (Average, Protected, Undrilled, Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen).

One such group going up against the Legionnaires should rightly have their asses handed to them.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:15 pm

MB
I have NEVER said that orcs SHOULD out class elfs don't no where you got that from, IN fact I have put my army list at the start of this thread and its anything but that.

70% of its unprotected ,and you said 50% should be poor and I said most warband armies have good morale .

Would be good if you could do the same for your elf army that you play with !

Could you post it for us all to see ???

I would love to see how many points your army is . IF your standard b.g of elfs is 152 pts and you have 3 units of them 456pts and that's only 36 bases !
MatthewB wrote:That does make gaming them a bit difficult, but classing them as Superior, Armored, Drilled, Heavy Foot is no worse than the Republican Romans, or some of the Byzantines who can be classed exactly the same (Principate Romans can have Mixed BGs of Superior, Armored, Drilled, Heavy foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen backed by Superior, Protected, Drilled, Light Foot - Bow in BGs of 12). In fact, they can have up to four of those BGs.


YOU CANT HAVE MID and LATE Republican romans in 12 base B.G and they CANT HAVE Velites in the 3rd rank !!!! Not in rise of rome army list I know I get a good kicking by them most weeks with my carthagians but v2 has help us out Big time now 8) so am happy to throw my Gallic warband at them romans now with a bit of luck I might have a fighting chance now ,good god they are hard army to break..

Why do you think that elfs should be in BIG battle groups and not smaller more mobile B.g , that's how I see them being used, well drilled, equipped and good training/morale , most armies had smaller Elite units like your roman Triarii 2-4 bases when there main core of Hastati and principes are 4-8 bases ,

I think putting them in 8 would be better . The romans can still handle the old warband of 12 bases as they are on + but the wb could get another 4 dice (flanks )in combat. oh and they prob get rerolls as well as they would be superior as well

them rotten romans ! you just have to hate them .. :)

We need to field armies that aint going to steam roll over every army that it faces, that's why we use points IN THESE RULES it makes it a fair game,you can have 5 b.g of elfs at 700pts but let the other player get the same total so hes going to field 9 b.g or more if orcs 8)


Happy gaming davekhan

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:41 pm

davekhan wrote:That what the romans thought about us Britons :) /gauls and Spanish

Armies that where Warband types had good morale as a hole in fact in v2 of the rule you can have up to 1/3 as superior you should read it some time .

Well my troop would be out classed and numerous to your Uber ELF B.G of 158pts per to my 84pts orc warband so is that a match up in your eyes

happy gaming davekhan

That looks to me like you said that there should be some sort of parity between the BGs.

The implication was confusing, at the very least.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:09 am

The Late Republican Romans DO have 8 base units of Legionnaires that are superior, but the Republicans are beside the point.

The Principate List still has units of 12 bases of 8 - Superior, Armored, Drilled, Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen; 2 - Superior, Unprotected, Drilled - Light Foot - Bow.

As do later Roman Armies (although their quality comes down).

But all of that is still beside the point. Romans, or anyone else is not Elves. And Middle-earth Elves are not your typical troops. It does present a bit of a challenge for the rules.

And, I don't think that they should be in bigger units, only that they were deployed as such several times. The list has them in units of 6 - 12, like all other Mixed-formations. I'm pretty sure that I've said that twice before.

How big their groups would be would depend upon when and how they are being used.

For the First Age, which is when most of the battles the Noldor took part in took place, they had armies that numbered into the Millions. Odds are that they didn't put them in tiny units. Reading the notes Tolkien made about the various battles of the First Age with the Noldor, they had some rather large armies, and leadership tended to be limited only to the Aristocracy.

For the Second Age, Eregion and Lindon would have larger units, while Lórien would have smaller units (having fewer Noldor living there). The notes Tolkien made about the rape of Eriador by Sauron in the Second Age listed the army of Celbrimbor as being about 30,000 strong, with many large units armed with long spears and tall shields. Gil-Gilad brought 100,000 Elves to the Last Alliance. Odds are likely those aren't going to be in tiny clumps, when they had a bit of a dearth of Leaders (Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Gil-Gilad, Cirdan, and maybe Erestor, Gildor, and Glorfindel).

When you get to the Third Age, they are going to be in very small groups, because most of the Noldor had left. Only Thranduil had the manpower (or Elfpower) to put together any sizable army. But they wouldn't be Noldorin, they would be Sylvan Elves and a few Sindarin. The units would be similar, save for having more Medium Foot of various kinds. The Only Noldorin left would have been in Lórien and Lindon at the time of the War of the Ring. And Lórien's Noldor were mostly from Rivendell (Elrond's troops, which amounted to a couple of thousand, tops - and most of those were mounted - BGs of 4-6). The rest of Galadriel's troops would have been Sindarin and Sylvan elves.

The Elves BG sizes are no different than those of other armies who used similar formations, save that the last rank (the archers) could still kick the ass of whoever might wind up facing them.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:16 am

Again... Elves, particularly those of Middle-earth, are neither human, nor are they analogous to any armies the humans put together.

If you really get down to it, in the First Age, the crap troops should be "Superior." But at that point it becomes hard to deal with the game. The only reason that Morgoth was able to do much to them was because he had untold Millions upon Millions of Orcs to throw at them, and then his legions of various demons he cooked up in his basement (Balrog, Boldoeg, and all manner of undead things that Sauron provided for him.... Technically Sauron really did most of the heavy lifting in creating all of these things), not counting the Dragons.

If you want to do Elves from some other Genre, then fine... But my interest in the Elves starts and ends at Middle-earth, and they are going to be some freakishly nasty troops to have to face.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:32 am

Since there was some confusion about the Orcs in the games I played against Elves (or as the Elves against the Orcs).

Here is the list we used for the Orcs:

1 C-C Field Commander
1 Sub Troop Commander

Morgul Orcs; 2 BGs of 8 bases each:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen
1 BG of 8 bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Superior, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Superior, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen

1 Allied Field Commander
Lugbúrz Orcs; 1 BG of 8 bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot
Lugbúrz Orcs; 3 BGs of 8 bases each:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot
Lugbúrz Uruks; 1 BG of 12 bases:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot

1 Allied Troop Commander
Gorgoroth Orcs; 2BGs of 12 bases each:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Impact Foot
Snaga; 1BG of 12 bases:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Mob - Bow, Light Spear

Like I said, they mobbed the Elves in the first game.

Well.... They mobbed the Elves in all the games. The only difference was that after the first game, we learned that the Elves needed to be more careful about terrain placement, and use of their superior archers against the HF Orcs, and to keep the Medium Foot Orcs from getting through that terrain.

I seem to recall that we did make some substitutions in one of the games for more Sylvan Elves, who ruled at keeping the Orcs away from the terrain their Medium Foot could get through and fight in. It was our only time to use Light Troops effectively to control terrain (something I had never been able to accomplish with Historical Armies).

I'll see if I can find a way to post a sketch of a few of the tables' terrain placement that I remember. I recall that one of them had a river that the Elves used to great effect, as any army should do. And in another they had a steep hill that they controlled the top of, with a wood to one side.

I want to get some of my Thunderbolt Mountain Wolf-riders painted, so that I can use them in a game (But then it would be Hithaeglir Orcs vs Sylvan Elves - I need to paint my Sylvan Elves as well... I have about 600 points of unpainted Thunderbolt Mountain Wood Elves - Sylvan Elves that is... I need to buy some of the High Elves they have, but I am not too keen on the faces of the High Elves. They look to Asian, or cat-like).

The Sylvan Elves use a similar Mixed formation of Spear and Bow, but they can be all Medium Foot, instead of the Heavy Foot/Medium Foot Archers of the High Elves, but they have far fewer of these troops. Most of their troops are Medium Foot Bowmen with Skilled Sword capability that are used to control wooded areas.

The Hithaeglir Orcs have more Medium Foot as well, being that they typically live and hunt in the Highlands. But they still have a fair amount of Heavy Foot too. And they have the Wolf/Warg-riders, which are Light Cavalry (Camelry - except they treat wooded & rocky areas as open terrain, instead of sand dunes) with a Ferocious Fighting Capability. I am still trying to figure out how to take into account the ferocity of the wolves. I am thinking that making them Skilled Swordsmen should be fitting. But I wonder if they would have any Impact POAs???

Depending upon the region, the Hithaeglir Orcs also have either fewer, or more Poor Troops. The Further North you get, the fewer Poor Troops. The Hithaeglir further North would also have fewer ability to take even One Sub Commander, though; being much more tribally separated, save for at Mt. Gundabad, and at Carn Dûm when The Witch King was in power (These two locations would have typical One C-C and two Sub-Commander armies, as opposed to the three Allied-Commander armies of the typical Hithaeglir Orc Army)

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by eldiablito » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:49 pm

MatthewB wrote:
Morgul Orcs; 2 BGs of 8 bases each:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen
1 BG of 8 bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Superior, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Superior, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
When dealing with Middle Earth orc versus elf, I would have a problem with these specific troops. Assuming that elves are armoured and swordsmen, then they are fighting at an even PoA (sometimes even on a - PoA). I would almost demand that elves would fight with + and a few times a ++. So, elves need Heavy Weapons, Defensive Spearmen, and Swordsmen for the archers. If you give the orcs armoured, then you are forcing elves to go Heavy Armoured. If you give orcs skilled swordsmen, then there is nowhere for the elves to go. That's plain wrong.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:54 pm

eldiablito wrote:
MatthewB wrote:
Morgul Orcs; 2 BGs of 8 bases each:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen
1 BG of 8 bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Superior, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Superior, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
When dealing with Middle Earth orc versus elf, I would have a problem with these specific troops. Assuming that elves are armoured and swordsmen, then they are fighting at an even PoA (sometimes even on a - PoA). I would almost demand that elves would fight with + and a few times a ++. So, elves need Heavy Weapons, Defensive Spearmen, and Swordsmen for the archers. If you give the orcs armoured, then you are forcing elves to go Heavy Armoured. If you give orcs skilled swordsmen, then there is nowhere for the elves to go. That's plain wrong.

Morgul Orcs are the elite of Mordor's troops.

And They may be fighting elves on even POA, but the quality re-roll will give the Elves a pretty significant advantage against all of them but the Orc C-C's bodyguard (who must remain with the C-C's Battleline).

We did make some changes to the List since playing these games, where we limited the number of Average and Superior troops to no more than 50% of an army (and Superior Troops to no more than 1 BG, for the C-C's bodyguard, and even these cannot be used if the C-C's is not an Orc, but a Black Númenórean).

That would mean that, in the case of this army list, that, in terms of bases, the army list fits this restriction; in terms of BG's, it would need one more BG of poor troops.

Upon looking at the army list itself, I don't see whether it says the restriction must be in BGs, Bases, or both (I am thinking it needs to be both, which would convert one BG of 8 Morgul Orcs into one BG of 12 Snaga).

We found that the army tended to behave like Orcs in terms of their staying power. They were difficult to get to auto-break, but they wound up needing to make cohesion tests nearly every turn in combat, and began to fail them pretty quickly, due to the number of poor quality troops. And when one BG began to break, most of those around it began to break as well (especially in the game where it was the C-C's bodyguard who wound up being impaled upon the Noldorin Phalanx). So as soon as things started going bad for them, they tended to run away.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:52 pm

MatthewB wrote:Here is the list we used for the Orcs:

1 C-C Field Commander
1 Sub Troop Commander
Morgul Orcs; 2 BGs of 8 bases each:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen
1 BG of 8 bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Superior, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Superior, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen

1 Allied Field Commander
Lugbúrz Orcs; 1 BG of 8 bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot
Lugbúrz Orcs; 3 BGs of 8 bases each:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot
Lugbúrz Uruks; 1 BG of 12 bases:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot

1 Allied Troop Commander
Gorgoroth Orcs; 2BGs of 12 bases each:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Impact Foot
Snaga; 1BG of 12 bases:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Mob - Bow, Light Spear
I think your orcs are too well armoured ,I don't think that orcs would have the same level of armour than a elf...
and you have a lot more superior stuff in THIS army than I had in mine LOL and it looks like you have gone back on every thing you said earlier !
MatthewB wrote:But also the fact that you have most of the Orcs being Average Quality.

Orcs are not a "Warband Army" per se, as they are not human.

I suppose that might depend upon interpretations of Orcs, but typically Tolkien describes them as being numerous and poor quality troops.

Having the Groups be 50:50 Average and Poor quality is what I would think would be more typical.
I Think you need to play a few more games to get a feel of the rules they are a great set!

Putting av warbands in 6 will not work ! warbands are in 8 bases for a reason ... and having impact foot and bow in the same B.G they will be on a + if not ++ and you are giving them bow on the IMPACT AS WELL ! so they would get 2 more dice than your elfs in the impact !

MB PLEASE sit down and have a GOOD READ of the rules and play some more games and not mod anything that way you will get the feel of the rules before you start buggering them up ..
Happy gaming DK


oh and it looks to me that the orc army has only 829pts not 900pts that the elfs had .

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:55 pm

oh and I don't think that av troops (esp. orcs )should be skilled swordsmen ,In fact I don't think they should have any skilled swordsmen/orcs .

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:10 pm

That is purely opinion, and does not reflect the status of the canon, where the Morgul Uruks were exceptionally skilled fighters, as were many of the First Age Orcs.

As for the Armored... We needed to use more armored Orcs because we just didn't have the miniatures to make up a less armored force.

And, many Mordor Orcs tend to be described as wearing chain, which seems to be plentiful.

As for "Warbands need to be in groups of 8'.... There are several Impact Foot Groups that can be 6 bases. Many of them are drilled, but this isn't something that is set out in the rules. It is something that is a prejudice of the list writers.

There are two groups of Morgul Uruks, and they are the Elite of Mordor's Orcs. It was their appearance around 2500 Third Age that began the decline of Gondor, and their appearance in large numbers that laid waste to Ithilien in 2800 - 2900 TA.

2 BGs of them is about the maximum allowed for the time period of the list (2500).

As for the composition of this army.

It has:

• 6 bases of Superior Troops
• 50 bases of Average Troops
• 60 bases of Poor troops.

And, as I said, we had yet to make a decision about whether the 50% poor ruling was for bases alone (which this does), or for BGs, which would require one BG to change from Average to Poor.

Your army has:
• 8 bases of Superior Troops
• 48 - 68 bases of Average Troops.
• 40 bases of Poor troops.

There are the Wolf-Rider BGs, Trolls, and Wolf-Packs have no listed quality. Of these, an unknown number of bases are Wolf-riders, 3 bases are Trolls, and I am assuming that 2 bases for the Wolf-Packs. Even if all of those are Poor (which the Wolf-Packs will not be), this still doesn't bring you up to near the number of Poor quality bases I have.

I'd say that the accusation that "My army has more "Superior" troops" is a bit of an exaggeration, as clearly yours does... Yours also has more bases of Average troops.

Yes... I know that there are some deviations from the troops in the army lists. But... As I keep saying: Middle-earth is not Earth, nor Historical.

And there are going to be deviations.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:39 pm

The Orc Army I posted has points, check your math.

C-C & Sub-General Command:
• 1 Field Commander 50 points
• 1 Troop Commander 35 Points
• 2 x 8 Bases:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen
-144 points (72 each BG - 9 pts per base)
• 1 x 8 Bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Swordsmen
- 56 points (7 points per base)
1 x 6 Bases:
4 Superior, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 Superior, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
- 72 points (13 points per HF, 10 points per MF)
• 1 x 6 Bases:
4 Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
- 58 points (10 points per HF, 9 points per MF)

• Total for Commands: 415 points

Allied Command
Field Commander 40 points
• 1 x 8 Bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot
- 48 points (6 points per base)
• 3 x 8 Bases:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot
- 96 points (32 points per BG, 4 points per base)
• 1 x 12 Bases:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen
- 108 points (9 points per base)

• Total for Command: 292 points
• Total for Army thus far: 707


Allied Command
• 1 Troop Commander 25 points
• 2 x 12 Bases:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Impact Foot
- 96 points (4 points per base)
• 1 x 12 Bases:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Mob - Bow, Light Spear
- 48 points (4 points per base)

• Total for command: 169
• Total for Army: 876


But I did discover two math errors.

We had originally counted the Morgul Bow armed Orcs are being Armored, putting them at 72 points, instead of 56, which I forgot to take into account.

And the 2 BGs Morgul Orcs would be 144 points, not 154 points.

This is an error of 26 points, which you can see would have the army at 902 points.

Considering we never included the points for the Camps (we counted both as Unfortified), we could easily just add a Fortified Camp to the Orcs to get 900 points even.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:43 pm

MB
end of the day its up to you how you play FOG ,horses for course. Your out look to the game is very different than mine ,

I try and play the game as close to FOG as I can and not change too much , as the more you add the more it will unbalance the game I think.
happy gaming KH .

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:12 am

Looking at the main army list, I do need to add a note about the Morgul Uruks.

Only 1BG can be superior with Skilled Swordsmen, and this is ONLY for an Orc General from Mina's Morgul who is at least a Field Commander. It is limited to the 6 bases in the list we played. Given that, the other Morgul Uruk BG should have just been Avg, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen, with a Rear Rank of Light Foot - Bow (and no other capabilities), and 9 total bases

And, an army can only contain two Superior Uruk BGs, period. These can only be Morgul, or Lugbúrz Uruks, and they are limited to 10% of the army's points (so odds are that an army would only be able to have one of them). And if the Morgul Uruks are not a bodyguard unit, then they can only have the Swordsmen Capability.

The Morgul Uruks are also the only Orcs that have any supporting archers, and they are always LF, unless in the bodyguard unit, in which case they may be either. This is because Gondor had a freaking lot of Mounted prior to the last few years of the War of the Ring (technically 3016, three years before Frodo & Co. set off for Mordor - This is when the Ringwraiths joined the war), and the Mordor Uruks were supposed to have been better at withstanding charges that the other Orcs.

Otherwise, looking at the list, most of the Orcs are Protected, most of the Uruks are Armored (although about 30% of the Uruks are Protected).

I need to go check the list, as I may have listed some of the Archers as being able to be Armored, which is a mistake. They should be protected, at best.

MB

davekhan
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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:14 am

MB
What version of the rules to you try and play with ?

Reason why I have gone with unprotected is that I thing that elfs Dwarfs WILL have better armour than Orcs ? so it reflects this in the melee table AND shooting is more effective to them which they where .

Having Uruk as heavy foot would work, as on the impact cav will not get a + ,

Don't think they should be Armoured at all ! they just don't have the equipment my Uruk don't ALL have shields ,helmets ,body armour , leg guards and chainmail! ect don't think they have that between 3 of them :) ...SO I just class them as protected on a good day .

Still
MatthewB wrote:• 1 x 6 Bases:
4 Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
- 58 points (10 points per HF, 9 points per MF)


Looks like you have skilled swordsmen in AV B.G which is SO WRONG ,, and Orcs as well which is a --- in my eyes AND they get 2 more dice in the IMPACT turn as well .But you play the rules different so you prob have a DBX rule which stops them using there bow.

happy gaming DK

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:57 am

MatthewB wrote:Since there was some confusion about the Orcs in the games I played against Elves (or as the Elves against the Orcs).

Here is the list we used for the Orcs:

1 C-C Field Commander
1 Sub Troop Commander

Morgul Orcs; 2 BGs of 8 bases each:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Swordsmen
1 BG of 8 bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Superior, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Superior, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen
Morgul Uruks; 1 BG of 6 bases:
4 x Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot, Skilled Swordsmen
2 x Average, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Bow, Skilled Swordsmen

1 Allied Field Commander
Lugbúrz Orcs; 1 BG of 8 bases:
Average, Protected, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot
Lugbúrz Orcs; 3 BGs of 8 bases each:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot
Lugbúrz Uruks; 1 BG of 12 bases:
Average, Armored, Undrilled Heavy Foot - Impact Foot

1 Allied Troop Commander
Gorgoroth Orcs; 2BGs of 12 bases each:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Medium Foot - Impact Foot
Snaga; 1BG of 12 bases:
Poor, Protected, Undrilled Mob - Bow, Light Spear

Like I said, they mobbed the Elves in the first game.

Well.... They mobbed the Elves in all the games.
That may be lack of experience with the rules. i.e. if you just try to match a more numerous enemy head to head then you will get mobbed. With a good quality drilled force against undrilled foot of lesser average points value standard procedure should be to hit hard in one spot, dlaying elsewhere and then exploit before the undrilled guys can react.

MatthewB
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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:36 pm

You are reading things into that statement.

The Elves managed to do fine in the later games. They just had to deal with the more numerous foes differently, and make certain that the Morgul Uruks themselves were kept away from the lesser troops and that their impetuosity was used against them (They would up being massacred by the Elven Knights in two of the games - remember, they don't get the Archer Support if they charge, only when they stand to receive a charge).

As for the Orc's armor status.

Tolkien says that the Orc's armor was Serviceable, although not as high quality as that of the Dwarves and the Elves.

Here are the rule's descriptions of Armored and Protected:

Armored: Metal Armor for at least the Head and Thorax (That would be chest, the stomach is the "Abdomen" - although stretching the definition could include the abdomen) - combined, in the case of foot, either with a substantial shield, or with additional metallic protection (The remainder of the definition is for mounted).
Protected:With a minimum of at least a moderate sized shield and/or leather or textile armor. Foot with at limited metallic protection but lacking shields.

Tolkien describes ALL of the Orcs and Goblins as having "Iron Caps" or Helmets. Most of them he describes as wearing chain or some form of armor. That would fit the definition of Armored. And there isn't an Orc mentioned that doesn't have a pretty tough shield.

The term lesser quality has a lot more to do with wear-and-tear, and with not lasting as long.

And not all Elves and Dwarves were encased in Mithril. Even were that the case, it doesn't seem to have done them much good, because they still died by the hundreds of thousands in the Wars of the First and Second Ages for the Elves, and for the First, Second, and Third Ages for the Dwarves (recall that Thranduil's forces at the Battle of Five Armies lost considerable numbers against the Goblins, as did the Dwarves. And they were only outnumbered a bit there).

If you want to represent the Dwarves and Elves as having that significant of Armor, then simply make them Heavily Armored (which they really should be anyway).

Because, by the rules, Orcs and Goblins tend to be at least Protected.

And in the case of the Mordor Orcs, they are still limited to 50% of the army as Armored (at least until 2470, when the Uruk-Hai of Sauron were unleashed on Gondor). Then entire armies of Uruks began to show up, being Armored, and of decent quality compared to previous Orcs and Goblins (at least compared to the Hithaeglir Goblins and Orcs).

If you are depicting Orcs from some other genre, then don't make them armored.

But these lists are composed to represent the armies of Middle-earth, based upon Tolkien's descriptions of the cultures and what little can be found about the armies themselves.

As to "Skilled Swordsmen can't be taken with Average troops..." I can find no rule that says this is the case. Training with a weapon is not identical to Morale and Troop Quality. There are people who are very skilled with weapons who are HORRIBLE soldiers (marksmen come to mind - many of them shoot for sport only, yet have no Military training), and there are people who are superb soldiers with very high morale, yet their skill is only average when compared to other soldiers.

As I said before, that is simply your prejudice, and not anything that could be found in the rules.

Saying "The Army lists don't have any Average Troops with Skilled Swordsmen" is no proof that the capability cannot be used with Average Troops. This is attempting to Deny the Antecedent (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent), which is a logical fallacy. It is akin to saying "There are no Black Swans in Europe, therefore Black Swans do not exist. Black Swans happen to exist in Australia. Same with Skilled Swordsmen who are average.

MB

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