Wolf Packs and Ogers

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davekhan
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Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by davekhan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:51 pm

How do we get around wolf packs /beasts ..
Am playing them as lt chariots and they MUST roll a CMT to charge in ..and classed as swordsmen in the combat ,they don't get any + if fighting steady spear/pike which I think is right ...

and Ogers as sythed chariots ? They work well as them I think ? in last game that is .

what do you all think ?
happy gaming DK

MatthewB
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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by MatthewB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:21 am

Wouldn't packs of animals tend to charge straight into the enemy unless stopped.

The way I have Wolf-Packs listed in the Hithaeglir Army list, they will be accompanied by a handler, and are based as Mob or Cav. They fight as a Mob, with minimal capabilities (if any... Maybe Light Spear and/or Swordsmen to reflect their charge and ability to fight).

But each turn, they must pass a CMT to avoid moving their max distance straight ahead (move distance is as per LH). If they pass the CMT then they may make any move they wish. If they are in charge distance, they must pass a CMT to avoid charging straight to the closest enemy BG.

And, I don't see anything wrong with having groups of 3 bases to start out with. The constraint upon odd unit sizes is entirely arbitrary, and to keep BGs rectangular to begin the game.

Not sure what to do about Ogres. Depends upon what they are modeled after.

MB

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by davekhan » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:10 pm

Don't think wolfs have that much blood lust they aint orc who are up for a good scrap.

I am thinking on the lines that they would have a trainer/master or Alpha male with them and IT has to get them to charge in at the same time,

Having them as Undrilled lt chariots goes well for them I think ? can you help me out with your mob or cav reason ? There is a great dif between a mob and cav unit.

Not sure that they would fight in 2 ranks as you are saying ? not when they are on a 40mm x 40mm base .. Like I said they DO get swordsman in melee ? they would break off at the end of the joint action phase IF they did not disrupt /frag en. as all cv do.

DK

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by MatthewB » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:15 am

The reason for Mob is that the behavior of wolves is more similar to a mob than is a Chariot.

But considering the speed o
˘¿f wolves, Cav would be a better fit. And, yes, they should probably get multiple ranks in melee.

Wolves are both pretty big, smarter than dogs, and can jump huge distances, not to mention being stronger than most humans. They would hit hard at impact, being able to mob individual targets en masse. They have big teeth, and very strong jaws. They have much more stamina than does a human.

The only drawback is that they are not as organized as humans.

Although Middle-earth wolves are going to be just as smart as humans.

Also, chariots have all kinds of terrain limitations that wouldn't affect wolves at all.

Chariots only move 3mu in uneven terrain, and 2mu in the rough (both of which wolves would completely ignore), and 1mu in difficult (which wolves would probably treat as no more than uneven or rough). LH probably has more accurate move distances fore wolves, since they can outrun a horse.

MB

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by davekhan » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:28 pm

Mb
Yes you are right about them as lt cav that would work a lot better than lt chariots for movement and I don't see why you could not have them in 3 bases per battle group that way they are a bit more brittle than other mounted stuff, but I still think they should fight as lt chariots in the impact turn ,and give them a mounted swordsman class in the combat as well .That way they break off if they don't disrupt the en b.g . at the end of the joint action phase .

Thanks for the input on this one, now Ogers :?

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by MatthewB » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:37 am

I have wondered about the "All BGs must be an even number of bases" rule.

I know why it came about (mostly because 3 bases of elephants or Scythed Chariots are freaking tough opponents).

But I would agree that 3 bases might be better.

Is it Knights that only fight one rank deep (Or am I thinking of Hoplon???).

One of the things about Wolves is that they probably shouldn't get any depth bonuses.

Ogres (or Trolls) are something that I have been wondering about.

Currently, I have just been treating them as Elephants.

But many descriptions of Trolls have them using weapons of all sorts (Heavy Weapon, Swordsmen, or even Skilled Swordsmen to make up for the rather large size of the weapon being used simply overpowering smaller opponents), or throwing rocks, or trees (Javelins or Light Artillery, depending upon the size of the stuff being thrown).

And Ogres especially have a good chance of being armored, which they make no accommodation in the rules for Elephants (something I think is a shortcoming, given things like Ghaznavid, and Seleucid Armored Elephants).

Somewhere there is a rule mod for a quality called "Behemoth," that can be applied to any troop. It will either double the depth, frontage, or both of a troop type. Depending upon how many dimensions are doubled, it adds to the point-cost and it alters how the unit is killed (making it exceptionally difficult to kill).

From what I can remember, the Behemoth modifier makes Death Tests more like Cohesion Tests, where instead of just removing the base if it fails a death test, it instead degrades upon failing a death test.

If the Troop Type just has its Depth or Frontage Doubled (It will usually be depth), then the Troop would need to fail two Death Tests to remove a base.

If the Troop has both dimensions doubled, then it will need to fail three Death Tests to remove a base.

And after failing each of the Tests before removing a base, it affects either the quality of the BG, or it affects their POA (We have yet to be able to playtest it in a full game. I have done a couple of units of Rohirrim fighting a Mûmakil Behemoth BG that seemed to work out well, with the BG loosing Combat dice as it failed Death Tests, or with it having a quality for the BG, and the quality going down, forcing the re-roll of Sixes after losing the first Death Test, and re-rolling Fives and Sixes after the second failed death Test).

The quality method worked less well.

I think a POA, or simple dice modifier might work better.

But this could be applied to Ogres as well.

Make them typical MF, HF, or Mob, with the depth doubled, and then having some penalty at each failed Death Test before a base is removed...

But that is just brainstorming.... It would take a bit of work to figure out how to make that sort of thing work.

MB

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by MatthewB » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:38 am

Never mind teh comment about ranks with Wolves... I found the notes we had on them, and it says they should get depth, fighting as a mass.

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by ravenflight » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:04 am

davekhan wrote:How do we get around wolf packs /beasts ..
Am playing them as lt chariots and they MUST roll a CMT to charge in ..and classed as swordsmen in the combat ,they don't get any + if fighting steady spear/pike which I think is right ...

and Ogers as sythed chariots ? They work well as them I think ? in last game that is .

what do you all think ?
happy gaming DK
Well, DBA rate 'dog handlers' as Warband, and other Warband (like Gauls) in FoG are rated as Impact Foot, so doing something similar would work out. If you wanted to you could always increase their movement, or create a totally new troop type.

I think it's fine for wolf packs to get the ++ vs spear/pike with only + (overall + to the wolves). The 'shock of impact' of the wolfpack is in the dice roll. Did they manage to get enough past the spear points to make contact? Yes/no based on the result. If they get more hits than the spear then yes, if they get less hits then no. The result of THAT is then in the melee phase. Did the spear manage to maintain cohesion (stay steady) in which case the wolves 'sword' (teeth) don't count.

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by davekhan » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Hi Lads
Could we play them as movement as Light Horse ,impact and melee as Light OR Heavy chariots that way they would get a ++ against Light and Medium foot and a + against most hvy foot , you are spot on about the steadiness spear/pike ect. in combat.
I cant see how wolfs would, and should get a better Impact than Knights would do against a spear/pike B.G ,I think my orc army has enough warbad b.G atm . :) and having them as Heavy Chariots in combat could be the job ?
what do you think ?

Now Ogers we have been using them as Scythed chariots and Hvy Armoured .they are used to break up the en battle line be for the Main attack hits the lines , They either do very well OR very bad its a Hit and miss with them.
Happy gaming DK

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by eldiablito » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:27 am

This is beginning to sound like light spear to me... As a bonus, if the knights were foolish to fight in terrain, then the wolves would find themselves with a PoA! I know that this differs from your statements, but wouldn't wargs and wolf riders fight better in the woods and scrub?

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by MatthewB » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:22 am

I would think they would be tremendously better in the Woods, considering that Literary Sources often place them in woods as their setting or home.

The Wolf Attack in The Hobbit was set in woods, and the Wolves had little problems with it.

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by MatthewB » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:47 pm

And that would be The Book and NOT the abomination of a movie.

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by davekhan » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:02 pm

eldiablito wrote:This is beginning to sound like light spear to me... As a bonus, if the knights were foolish to fight in terrain, then the wolves would find themselves with a PoA! I know that this differs from your statements, but wouldn't wargs and wolf riders fight better in the woods and scrub?
Well yes they DO as they would be classed as Light Horse for movement and are better off than Knights in Uneven and rought terrain ,the Knights lose MORE dice than Lt horse ,

They both get severely disordered in difficult terrain which goes with out saying as the terrain would break up ANY type of formed/ mounted charge on its target

But what class would you give them eldiablito if not Lt horse ?

can some one tell me are theer actually wargs and wolf riders in any of the books (don't remember them in the book same as the elfs in helms deep but its been a long time since I read the books ) OR is it a GW thing that I am missing ?

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by MatthewB » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:59 pm

Wolves are terrifically Nimble over all manner of terrain (such as steep mountain slopes and crevasses). This would suggest that they would not be "disordered" in such terrain, indeed, if a "Wolf-Pack" can be said to have ANY ORDER to begin with.

In Tolkien's works, Wolves, Werewolves (although NOT the "Man changing into a Wolfe type Werewolf, these would be Scandinavian Werewolves, which are simply highly intelligent wolves that have hands instead of paws - and they can talk), and Wargs all appear in various places.

In The Hobbit, Wolves attack the Dwarves, Gandalf, and Bilbo as they flee Goblin Town. There are some suggestions that some of the Goblins are riding some of the Wolves, but this is not made clear in The Hobbit. But the Wolves manage to chase down the group through very difficult terrain, over which Horses could not travel.

In The Lord of the Rings there are several instances where Wolves attack the Fellowship.

The first time is in Hollin/Eregion, when Wargs attack the group at night. The Wargs have no trouble clambering all over the rocks and trees in the middle of the night, and manage to leap completely over the circle of burning brush that Aragorn set to defend against them.

Wolf-Riders appear in The Two Towers in several places. The Rohirrim mention them in telling the members of the Fellowship at Eddoras about the behavior of the Wolf-riders, who are capable of running underneath the Horses and cutting open the Horse's bellies.

Warg riders are mentioned in other writings as being larger versions of the Wolf Riders, with a sort of Symbiotic relationship between the Warg and Rider.

Again, the Wargs have no trouble with any sort of terrain, traveling across almost all terrain in the Southern Hithaeglir, Wold, and Riddermark with equal ease.

No Wargs showed up at Helm's Deep, but they were reported to have been prowling the countryside.

As for GW's WHFB.... Not a freaking clue.

MB

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by eldiablito » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:25 pm

I get the impression of camelry with light spears... Albeit, these "camels" can handle terrain better because they fought in very different types. So, we've finally reached a limit to FoG. The rules, as written, work for historicals, and we are exploring fantasy. Sigh. If I had any sort of clout, I would use the camel rules, adjust them to include all sorts of uneven and rough terrain choices (just not dunes), and start the play testing. Heck, as a baseline, I might even keep the basic point value too.

So, LH, camelry, light spear and unprotected is 8 points. I might even make them swordsmen or protected for 9-10 points each (This sounds better to me). If there is a goblin on top, then you could give them bows too (that is only 2 dice).

So, in my imagination, I can see them fighting Rohan cavalry (superior, cav, drilled, lancer, armoured, swordsmen at 17 points each). While in the woods, the cav will charge in disordered (3 dice at -PoA) to the wolf's steady (2 dice at +PoA). Very likely, both will get 1 hit each. Now, in melee, the cav will fight with 3 dice and +PoA to the wolf's 2 dice at -PoA. Even without re-rolls, the human should do well, unless the wolves flank/swarm him. That fits the 3rd age to me. However, I do know that many people know the literature better than I. Also, with some archers too, you'll be able to disrupt at least one or 2 human BGs before swarming the flank.

Even if the warg was caught out in open terrain, then the human cav is still disordered so down dice, but at least have the lance PoA and superior re-rolls.

More importantly, an army of mostly wargs should have roughly 28 stands and a field commander at best. That comes out to 302 points for +3 initiative. A good goblin player could easily build a sizeable army with the remaining 498 points.

You know, after writing all of this, I sorta feel like the army would be slightly better if some of the wargs could be superior cav, camels, light spear, swordsmen, protected, bow* at 16 points each. That way, if the goblin player can entice a human player into disordering terrain, then the warg will have more dice and a PoA on impact and more dice but down a PoA in melee.

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by MatthewB » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:32 pm

I think that I mentioned something to that effect earlier (That Wolves are sort of like Camels in that they can ignore some terrain, and may or may not have adverse effects on Horses - I tend to think not, personally, but Wargs, if they are indeed a completely different animal that typical wolves, might have such an effect).

Also, how do you combined LH and Camelry? FoG really needs a troop type for Light Camels (although, I have seen the arguments on various DBx forums about whether such a thing really exists).

I think that really, this just points out the need for some specific troop types that might need to be created for a Fantasy Version of FoG.

Wolves, as well as Wolf-riders need to have a complete set of stats created.

Tolkien described, as I mentioned earlier, at least three distinct forms of Wolves (which means that there are at least four types of Wolves in Middle-earth) used by the Forces of Evil. First would be the Naurhoth (Werewolves) that appear in the First Age, mostly as Servants of Sauron (and probably creations of his as well).

Naurhoth are gigantic intelligent Wolves that have human hands and feet, capable of grasping things, yet still quadrupeds.

Then there are the Wolves in The Hobbit, which Tolkien later said were probably distant relative of the Naurhoth (themselves mostly destroyed in the First Age, during the War of Wrath), which are also intelligent, but they do not seem to have the human components (hands), nor the same intelligence as the Naurhoth. They are called Wargs here at least once.

Then there are the Wargs, described in The Lord of the Rings. Again, Tolkien himself said that he did not know if these were the same wolves/wargs as those in The Hobbit, or not, and he describes them somewhat differently, as Orcs are now riding them, which was a question that was left open in The Hobbit (were Goblins riding the wolves in the attack on the Dwarves?).

But in all cases, these Wolves are distinct from your typical Wild or Feral Wolves.

And this doesn't even acknowledge other fantastic animals or troop types that need to be addressed (flying things, for instance).

An excellent example of something that is difficult to deal with under the rules would be large demonic creatures, such as the Balrogs of the First Age of Middle-earth, and the plethora of minor Demons created by Morgoth as well (I cannot remember all of the names Tolkien came up for these things - he only really addressed the issue in some of his notes for the Sack of Gondolin, and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad). Balrogs, for instance, are probably not as large as depicted in the movies, but would still be quite large (maybe three to found times the size of a person - so 13 to 15 feet tall - that makes them about the mass of a small Elephant or large Rhinoceros). Yet they would be vastly more dangerous than an elephant (or even a group of elephants) due to the fact that they all have opposable thumbs, and are surprisingly intelligent and capable of magical feats.

If you get into the sort of creatures that appear in Warhammer, though, then the entire system of Archaic Warfare breaks down, as these creatures essentially duplicate the characteristics of mechanized warfare.

Back to the Wolves, though.

They should definitely be characterized as being Shock Troops, who would be prone to charge or advance without orders. And there is definitely the case that they could be Superior (most of the demonic things in Middle-earth, at least, were neither cowards, nor lacked the ability to inflict great harm and fear upon their opponents - Wolves would fall into this category).

One last point.

When describing troops, could we agree to stick to either the Army List or Starter Army description of troops?

This would be (In the case of the Army List):

Troop Type, Armor, Moral, Training, Missile-Weapon, Impact/Melee characteristics

And for the Starter Armies:

Morale, Armor, Training Troop Type - Missile, Melee

It makes it easier to keep straight what is going on.

MB

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by davekhan » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:05 pm

Had a few games over the last few weeks .
at the moment we are playing

Wolfs AS: light horse movement ( but down a lvl on the terrain list so disorder become nothing ect.. ) Av ,unprotected ,swordsmen , (shock troop class) combat as light chariots ,when the wolfs have to break off OR route then they double there distance (so variable dice roll doubled ) 1st part of move straight back then can move as normal in 2nd part ..

Ogers AS: sythed chariots Av, armoured (just makes them harder to hit )


we think it works well ,please tell me what you think.

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by grahambriggs » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:38 am

Not sure the armoured with Ogres will make much difference. Scythed chariots die in the JAP anyway. So you might need a rule to say that Ogres don't?

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by davekhan » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:06 pm

your right but it helps them when they get shot ..

I don't see a problem if they don't break the en unit at the end of the turn then they go! , they are designed to break up the en battle line so when the orcs get there they have a better chance to win .

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Re: Wolf Packs and Ogers

Post by grahambriggs » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:34 am

Hmm. Surely shooting against scythed chariots is at the same factors regardless of armour?

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