Social War Italians

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LambertSimnel
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Social War Italians

Post by LambertSimnel » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:12 am

I have been pondering what an army list for Rome's Italian enemies in the Social War would look like. Since the core of their army was men who had served in the legions, the list would be close to the Late Republican Roman list, but without any non-Italian troops.

I have not seen any evidence for veteran troops. However, the Socii were at least once joined by a Gallic contingent (who promptly fled when a leader was killed in single combat)

So my initial stab at a list is as follows.

Core Troops
As per the LRR list except no Elite Legionaries.

Optional Troops
Field Fortifications 0-18

Allies
Gallic Allies

There are some things that I am unsure whether to include:

-Should they be allowed Ligurian MF? I would expect so, or if not Ligurians then maybe other unassimilated Italian peoples using the same stat line.

-Did the Italians field any Bolt-shooters? I wouldn't be surprised, but probably not as many as a Roman army could.

-Does the number or type of cavalry need to be changed? The Italians wouldn't have access to the subject/mercenary cavalry that the LRR list notes identify the cavalry as being, but it appears that Marius only got rid of Roman cavalry and until after the Social War the Italian allies continued to provide cavalry at the pre-Marian numbers. Therefore, maybe the Italians should have neither LH nor Superior Cavalry, but be allowed up to 12 Average Cavalry (ie 50% more than a MRR army would have)

-Should the 20,000 slaves armed by the Samnites be treated as Raw legions or as something else? Slaves armed by Punic War Rome are treated as Raw legions in the MRR list so they could well be.

-Did the Italians have enough armour to make all their legions Armoured, or should a downgrade to Protected be allowed or enforced? No idea

-Is there anything I have missed? Almost certainly.

MatteoPasi
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Re: Social War Italians

Post by MatteoPasi » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:22 pm

[quote="LambertSimnel"]

There are some things that I am unsure whether to include:

-Did the Italians field any Bolt-shooters? I wouldn't be surprised, but probably not as many as a Roman army could.

-Should the 20,000 slaves armed by the Samnites be treated as Raw legions or as something else? Slaves armed by Punic War Rome are treated as Raw legions in the MRR list so they could well be.

-Did the Italians have enough armour to make all their legions Armoured, or should a downgrade to Protected be allowed or enforced? No idea

[quote]

1. I don't think so, it requires lot of technology;
2. Raw Legions or HF Poor Undrilled L. Spear Sw
3. Not al all, there is not so many iron in Italy ;) ex: Sanniti had anly linen armour

LambertSimnel
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Re: Social War Italians

Post by LambertSimnel » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:52 pm

MatteoPasi wrote:
LambertSimnel wrote:
There are some things that I am unsure whether to include:

-Did the Italians field any Bolt-shooters? I wouldn't be surprised, but probably not as many as a Roman army could.

-Should the 20,000 slaves armed by the Samnites be treated as Raw legions or as something else? Slaves armed by Punic War Rome are treated as Raw legions in the MRR list so they could well be.

-Did the Italians have enough armour to make all their legions Armoured, or should a downgrade to Protected be allowed or enforced? No idea

1. I don't think so, it requires lot of technology;
2. Raw Legions or HF Poor Undrilled L. Spear Sw
3. Not al all, there is not so many iron in Italy ;) ex: Sanniti had anly linen armour
Makes sense.

The other thing I was wondering about was whether enough is known to force the Gallic allies to be MF or to force them to be HF. Mind you if they were Cisalpine Gauls then they would have been living under Pax Romana for a century, which could well have affected their prowess; they certainly didn't shower themselves with glory as allies of the Italians.

lionheartrjc
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Post by lionheartrjc » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:23 pm

Enough Numidians deserted to the Italian side during the Social war that the Romans sent the rest back to Numidia. You might therefore be justified to include one unit of 4 Numidian Cavalry in an Italian army.

See http://www.ualberta.ca/~csmackay/CLASS_ ... l.War.html

LambertSimnel
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Post by LambertSimnel » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:04 pm

Unsurprisingly Lost Scrolls' Seven Hills lists didn't shed a great deal of light on the Italians of the 1st century BC. So here is a list for the Socii based on the previous discussion here.

Code: Select all

Territory Types: Agricultural, Developed, Hilly, Woodlands

CinC 		IC/FC/TC 								1
Subs		FC										0-2
			TC										0-3

Legionaries	HF, Amd, Avg, Drld, IF Swd		4-8		16-36
	or			HF, Prt, Avg, Drld, IF Swd		4-8
	or			HF, Prt, Poor,Drld, IF Swd		4-8

ex-Roman Alae	HF, Amd, Sup, Drld, IF SSwd	4-8		0-24
	or				HF, Prt, Sup, Drld, IF SSwd	4-8

Velites		LF, Prt, Avg, Drld, Jav LS			6-8	0-12	6-20
	or			LF, Unp, Avg, Drld, Jav LS			6-8	
Javelinmen		LF, Unp, Avg, Drld, Jav LS		6-8	0-12
Slingers			LF, Unp, Avg, Drld, Sling		6-8	0-12

Italian Cav.		Cv, Amd, Avg, Undr, LS Swd	4-6		4-12
	or				Cv, Prt, Avg, Undr, LS Swd	4-6	

Numidian Cav		LH, Unp, Avg, Undr, LS Swd	4		0-4

Fortified camp										1

Field Fortifications 								0-18 

Ligurians			MF, Prt, Avg, Undr, LS		6-8		0-12
or similar

Armed slaves	HF, Prt, Poor,Drld, IF Swd	4-8		0 or 16-24
	or all		HF, Prt, Poor,Undr, LS Swd	6-8
	or all			Mob,Unp, Poor,Undr		8-12

Gallic Allies
EDIT: added terrain

EDIT2: added Field Fortifications

Sabratha
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Re: Social War Italians

Post by Sabratha » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:35 pm

LambertSimnel wrote:I have been pondering what an army list for Rome's Italian enemies in the Social War would look like. Since the core of their army was men who had served in the legions, the list would be close to the Late Republican Roman list, but without any non-Italian troops.

I have not seen any evidence for veteran troops. However, the Socii were at least once joined by a Gallic contingent (who promptly fled when a leader was killed in single combat)

So my initial stab at a list is as follows.

Core Troops
As per the LRR list except no Elite Legionaries.

Optional Troops
Field Fortifications 0-18

Allies
Gallic Allies

There are some things that I am unsure whether to include:

-Should they be allowed Ligurian MF? I would expect so, or if not Ligurians then maybe other unassimilated Italian peoples using the same stat line.

-Did the Italians field any Bolt-shooters? I wouldn't be surprised, but probably not as many as a Roman army could.

-Does the number or type of cavalry need to be changed? The Italians wouldn't have access to the subject/mercenary cavalry that the LRR list notes identify the cavalry as being, but it appears that Marius only got rid of Roman cavalry and until after the Social War the Italian allies continued to provide cavalry at the pre-Marian numbers. Therefore, maybe the Italians should have neither LH nor Superior Cavalry, but be allowed up to 12 Average Cavalry (ie 50% more than a MRR army would have)

-Should the 20,000 slaves armed by the Samnites be treated as Raw legions or as something else? Slaves armed by Punic War Rome are treated as Raw legions in the MRR list so they could well be.

-Did the Italians have enough armour to make all their legions Armoured, or should a downgrade to Protected be allowed or enforced? No idea

-Is there anything I have missed? Almost certainly.
I'd say the list needs some superior protected/armoured MF impact foot swordsmen. To account for the Samnites. Samnites were fierce highlanders, I believe they deserve both the superior quality as well as MF classification over HF.
I'm also not sure wether the lish should have LF archers, or at least if their numbers shoud be as high as the late rep roman list. If I remember correctly, most support archers in the roman legions were not ethnically UItalic. Rather Greek, Celtic, Sicilian or Sardinian.

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