Kassite Babylonian

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marcusy
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Kassite Babylonian

Post by marcusy » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:18 pm

Kassite Babylonian: 1520 BC – 1155 BC


Core Troops

Name Type Arm. Qual. Train. Capabilities Cost BG Bases
Chariots LCh Sup. Dr. Bow 18 4-6 4-24

Kibitum HF Arm. Sup. Dr. Light Spear 11 6-8 6-24

Rasum MF Prot. Sup. Dr. Impact Foot, Swordsmen 10 6-8 6-16

Militia Spearmen MF Prot. Av. Undr. Light Spear 5 6-8 6-24


Optional troops

Name Type Arm. Qual. Train. Capabilities Cost BG Bases
Militia Archers LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Bow 5 6-8 6-24

Militia Slingers LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Sling 4 6-8 0-8

Nomad Javelinmen LF Prot. Av. Undr. Javelin, Light Spear 5 6-8 0-8
With Shield

Nomad Javelinmen LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Javelin, Light Spear 4 6-8 0-24

Nomad Warriors MF Prot. Av. Undr. Light Spear 5 6-8 0-8
With shield

Nomad Warriors MF Unpr. Av. Undr. Light Spear 4 6-8 0-24

Fortified Camp 24 0-1

marcusy
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Post by marcusy » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:39 am

On reflection, perhaps the following list would be preferable:

Core Troops

Name Type Arm. Qual. Train. Capabilities Cost BG Bases
Chariots LCh Sup. Dr. Bow 18 4-6 4-24

Kibutim HF Prot. Sup. Dr. Light Spear, Swordsmen 9 6-8 6-24

Rasum MF Prot. Sup. Dr. Bow, Swordsmen 10 6-8 6-16

Militia Spearmen MF Prot. Av. Undr. Light Spear 5 6-8 6-24

Militia Archers LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Bow 5 6-8 6-24


Optional troops

Name Type Arm. Qual. Train. Capabilities Cost BG Bases
Militia Slingers LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Sling 4 6-8 0-8

Nomad Javelinmen LF Prot. Av. Undr. Javelin, Light Spear 5 6-8 0-8
With Shield

Nomad Javelinmen LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Javelin 4 6-8 0-24
Light Spear

Nomad Warriors MF Prot. Av. Undr. Light Spear 5 6-8 0-8
With shield

Nomad Warriors MF Unpr. Av. Undr. Light Spear 4 6-8 0-24

Fortified Camp 24 0-1

Ghaznavid
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Post by Ghaznavid » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:57 pm

First of I need to mention that this isn't my period at all, so I can say little as to the historical veracity. I can do some general analysis from a a list writers perspective though.

If you check Swifter and the appropriate armies from Lost Scrolls you will notice two things:
1.) HF is rare (that is intentional to avoid making the infantry of the period to strong vs. Chariots).
2.) Superior Infantry is rare (the elite of the armies and the deciding arm were usually the chariots).

Your list however offers both in spades, even in combination. Even Sea-People, being renown for their ferocious infantry only get less then half the number of superior infantry your list offers and none as superior HF. Most armies get one BG of 6-8 Bases of superior HF as guards, but that is it. Considering that your list is way out of sync with the other armies of the period. So unless you can make a case for Kassite infantry being far better then that of all other armies in period as well as notably more resilient vs. chariots I doubt the classifications can be maintained. The second version with the Kibutim being also swordsmen just make is all the more unpalatable I'm afraid.

As for the protected Nomad LF. A shield that is substantial enough to make LF protected is certainly substantial enough to stop them from being skirmishers.
In other words, either then shield is sufficiently small to allow them to skirmish, but not large enough to make them protected or it's large enough to make them protected but also MF.
Aside from some Late Medieval LF the protected/unprotected decision for LF is more based on effect then equipment anyway. So no matter if they had a shield or not, the question is where they substantially better then other contemporary LF in melee. If not protected is not an option.
Karsten


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marcusy
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Post by marcusy » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:35 am

Thanks for the feedback, Ghaznavid. I was starting to fear that nobody cared about armies from the Bronze Age...

It is true that HF is rare or non-existent in many of the Bronze Age lists, and Superior troops also to a lesser extent, but there are notable exceptions. The Later Sumerian or Akkadian (admittedly somewhat earlier in time but the same region as for Babylon), for example, allows for the choice of up to 126 bases of Heavy Foot, up to 24 of which can be Superior, and incorporates some chariots as well, and the Early Elamite list also allows up to 28 bases of HF for the early part of that list.

I would have to agree, however, that the existing lists take the view that HF was a creature of the Early Bronze Age, and that in the Middle and Late Bronze Age there was a transition to Medium Foot, and that Superior foot then becomes largely confined to a few small units of guardsmen. Given my proposed list is Late Bronze Age, it is hard to resist the criticism that my proposal is somewhat out of step with the other lists.

There is little direct evidence I can find as to the Kassite Babylonian army, or to the military properties of the Kassites themselves. My list was based primarily on the following reasoning:

1. I gather from a secondary source apparently based on the Mari Archive that armies of the region in the Middle Bronze Age included "elite or heavy troops (kibitum) [which] seem to be more heavily armed and better trained than ordinary soldiers, but also to move more slowly".
2. The same source refers to an elite vanguard force (rasum) that could march faster than most other troops and, in one particular army, made up one third of the total army of 3,000 men.
3. The Kassites captured Mari and used it as a base for taking Babylon. It thus seems likely they would have been influenced by Mari military practice.
4. Prior to the fall of the early Bablyonian kingdom, the army seems to have been largely deployed in garrisons, suggesting a substantial part of the army were regulars. The kingdom fell after these garrisons rebelled.
5. The Kassites seem to have been quickly Babylonized. Their army presumably would have retained regular troops of the type that went over to them with the fall of the old kingdom.
6. Kassite Babylonia was highly stable for centuries and a major power, coming to rule most of Mesopotamia. That suggests their military structure was reasonably powerful and professional.
7. Chariots were generally much more widespread in the near east in the late bronze age.

All this is a rather tenuous, of course, and lack of real evidence is probably why there is no published list. In a Late Bronze Age multiplayer campaign, however, a Kassite Babylonian list would be very useful to have, hence my attempt to create one.

In light of the points raised, I suppose the best option is to asume that the kibitum represented a much smaller part of the army and an army consisting of one third rasum was atypical.

I will post a revised version of the list shortly to address these matters.

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Post by marcusy » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:50 am

How's this? Kibutim and rasum are now reduced to non-compulsory special troops, maximum 1 unit each. I have replaced them in the "core troops" section with "regular infantry" taken straight out of the Amorite Kingdoms list (applicable to Middle Bronze Age Babylon). I have removed the offending shielded skirmishes and also classed all "nomad warriors" as unprotected (making them inferior to the urban militia). I think I got the idea of shielded/unshielded nomad troops from the DBM Kassite Babylonain list, but as I have not slavishly followed it in other respects, then I really had no good reason to do so for the nomads.


Core Troops

Name Type Arm. Qual. Train. Capabilities Cost BG Bases
Chariots LCh Sup. Dr. Bow 18 4-6 4-24

Regular Infantry MF Prot. Av. Dr. Light Spear, Swordsmen 7 6-8 6-24

Militia Spearmen MF Prot. Av. Undr. Light Spear 5 6-8 12-32

Militia Archers LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Bow 5 6-8 12-32


Optional troops

Name Type Arm. Qual. Train. Capabilities Cost BG Bases
Kibutim HF Prot. Sup. Dr. Light Spear, Swordsmen 9 6-8 0-8

Rasum MF Prot. Sup. Dr. Bow, Swordsmen 10 6-8 0-8

Militia Slingers LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Sling 4 6-8 0-8

Nomad Javelinmen LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Javelin, Light Spear 4 6-8 0-32

Nomad Warriors MF Unpr. Av. Undr. Light Spear 4 6-8 0-32

Fortified Camp 24 0-1

Ghaznavid
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Post by Ghaznavid » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:40 pm

A lot more in line with the other contemporary lists. As said it is not really my period so I can't comment on the historical values of it, sorry.
Total of troops is 1328, which is enough and minima add up to 234 which is OKish as well, maybe increase the chariot minima to 6.
Technically the list is pretty ok now. Commanders are missing (basically it's mainly the question C-in-C +3 subs or should the list require an (internal) ally-commander if 4 commanders are desired). Any allies?
Karsten


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Post by marcusy » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:07 am

I thought minima of 250 was an absolute maximum, which would be exceeded if the chariot minimum was increased. I note that Early Elamite of the same period (a fair comparison) also has a 4-chariot minimum.

Unlike many other Bronze Age empires, Kassite Babylonia worked on a provincial basis with centrally-appointed governors rather than on a tributary system. In the circumstances, a C-in-C plus up to 3 sub-commanders would be the appropriate option. The commanders should be depicted in chariots.

As for allies, the Kassites were in documented diplomatic correspondence with the Assyrians, Hittites, Elamites and Egypt, but the Hittites and Egyptians seem too far removed geographically to have supplied allied contingents. Nomad and highland raider allies are allowed to both the Early Amorites and Early Elamites, and seem logical for Kassite Babylonia as well (particularly as the Kassites themselves were highland raiders). I would thus allow the following allies for Kassite Babylonia:

Early Nomad
Early Highland Raiders
Early Elamite
Middle or Early Neo-Assyrian

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Post by player » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:00 am

I would suggest that this list is based on the Middle Assyrian part of the Middle and Early Neo-Assyrian list; and the Mitanni list which is basically 2 horse chariots, a small drilled element of light spear, swordsmen and the rest militia. It is contemporary with these lists rather than the Amorite Kingdoms list. Assyria in the Late Bronze Age (Middle Assyrian proper) was basically a province of Hurrian Mitanni and the Kassites were also Hurrian speaking and from the same stock.

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Post by marcusy » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:52 am

I thought that Kassite was either a language isolate or grouped with Elamite, and not in the same familt as Hurrian and Urartian. I also understood that the Kassites were more likely to have been hill-tribesmen from the Zagros mountains than chariot-oriented people of the plains. There actually seems little known about them for sure, partly because after they conquered Babylon there were assimilated into Babylonian culture. For that reason I based the list more on the Babylonian armies immedaitely prior to the Kassite conquest, but with more chariots in keeping with the regional trend at the time.

I note that the Middle and Early Neo-Assyrian list only starts in 1365, whilst my Kassite list starts in 1520. If the identification of Kassites with Hurrians was correct, would it not be preferable to look more to the Mitanni list, which also has the virtue of an earlier start date of 1595? I note that my list is rather closer to the Mitanni list than it is to the Assyrian list with the latter's unusual half/half spear and bow units.

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Post by player » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:06 am

The Kassites were highlanders from the Zagros mountains and the Hurrians were Highlanders from the mountains further north so they had simliar roots. The Hurrians formed the Mitanni kingdom and the Kassites conquered Babylonia and ultimately formed similar kingdoms in terms of army composition.

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Post by hazelbark » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:52 pm

I've been looking to fix this hole and i have done it less by research and more by comparing to the lists around this time frame.
Time frame would be 1531-1135. Allow only 3 non-allied generals.

Core Troops
Name Type Arm. Qual. Train. Capabilities Cost BG Bases
Chariots LCh Sup. Undr. Bow 18 4-6 0-8 Average allowed
Regular Infantry MF Prot. Av. Dr. Light Spear, Swordsmen 7 6-8 6-16
Militia Spearmen MF Prot. Av. Undr. Light Spear, Swordsmen 5 6-8 12-32 or just Light Spear
Militia Archers LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Bow 5 6-8 12-32 allow as poor

Optional troops
Name Type Arm. Qual. Train. Capabilities Cost BG Bases
Kibutim MF Prot. Sup. Dr. Light Spear, Swordsmen 9 6-8 0-8
Rasum MF Prot. Average. Dr. Bow, 9 6-8 0-8 allow undrilled
Militia Slingers LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Sling 4 6-8 0-24 allow poor
Nomad Javelinmen LF Unpr. Av. Undr. Javelin, Light Spear 4 6-8 0-32 allow poor
Nomad Warriors MF Unpr. Av. Undr.Impact Foot, Swordsemen 6 6-8 0-32

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Post by player » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:03 pm

I think the Militia archers in Core troops should be allowable as MF and further 0-24 LF levy archers in optional troops rather than core. Also if you have the impact foot at this time then they should be proctected as in the Highland raiders list in lost scrolls which covers the early Kassites. I would call them Highlanders for flavour rather than nomads and keep the nomads for the levy javelinmen, slingers and archers

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Post by player » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:32 pm

I think as an alternative and in the absence of this list having a separate list of its own in any book, then I think it should be incorporated into either the Mitanni list
or Middle Assyrian list. Later Babylonian can also be incorporated into the Early Neo-Assyrian list. This way there could be just some comments in the text or restrictions for Kassite Babylonian of the Late Bronze Age and Later Babylonian of the early iron Age

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Re: Kassite Babylonian

Post by Simpleton » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:00 am

Back in my DBM days, I ran a website called "Bob's Bronze Age Gaming page" dedicated to the period from 1800-1000BC. The army I ran was Kassite Babylonian. The DBM and other rules systems have Kassite lists you can extrapolate from. If you don't already have WRG's Armies of the Ancient Near East 3000BC-539BC by Nigel Stillman and Nigel Tallis I would start there. I also highly recommend Robert Drews The End of the Bronze Agea great book on Bronze Age military forces and its bibliography will have numerous helpful titles. For more political and sociological info on the Kassites I suggest John Oates Babylon (revised edition) and Michael Roaf A Cultural Atlas of Mesopotamia and the Ancient Near East. Generally the Kassites started out similar to the hill tribes that had harassed Mesopotamia for centuries, but when the Hammurabic dynasty was destroyed by the Hittites, they took over and quickly became assimilated. They used a feudal system of governors and adopted the 2 wheel archer carrying chariot soon after taking power. They ruled a unified Mesopotamia and came into conflict primarily with three opponents: Elamites and other eastern hill tribes, Sealanders along the (future) Persian Gulf, and the Assyrians. Eventually Kassite kings became puppets of Elam or Assyria until Assyria subjugated the entire Babylonian state. Until then it is often remarked that the Kassites were better talkers and traders than fighters. By their diplomacy and negotiating skill, they ruled Babylonia for more than 500 years, longer than any other political dynasty.

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