Clash of the Mortals (Allied Major Victory)

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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afalarco
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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by afalarco » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:49 am

Germans are too weak in Ostfront

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by joerock22 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:13 pm

It looks like you have an excellent opportunity to kill some quality German units right now. The Axis player has divided his tanks and mechs so that he is weak on both fronts. You should concentrate all of your forces in one area and just overwhelm him. You may lose some units too, but with your PP income you can replace them easily while he will find it much more difficult.

Go for a knockout blow! :)

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by rkr1958 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:40 pm

joerock22 wrote:It looks like you have an excellent opportunity to kill some quality German units right now. The Axis player has divided his tanks and mechs so that he is weak on both fronts. You should concentrate all of your forces in one area and just overwhelm him. You may lose some units too, but with your PP income you can replace them easily while he will find it much more difficult.

Go for a knockout blow! :)
Joe, I agree with you 100% and that was what I had decided to do as you'll see in my next post. I was just waiting for a critical air tech upgrade which I got and made last turn.

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by rkr1958 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:15 pm

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Peter Stauffenberg
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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:30 pm

The Germans don't stand a chance in this game. The Russians will kill the German offensive units soon and the western Allies can land in France. The Germans can't quickly get units back from North Africa and Iraq / Persia.

The Germans simply have too few units despite high quality ones in the east. The units they have there are armor and mech and those units are hard to replace. In your position I would just go all out in the center with your air and armor force and rush towards Berlin and Hamburg. There aren't enough forces in Germany to stop your panzers. You will bleed a lot, but so will the Germans. They can't replace their high quality losses.

Facing 10+ Russian tanks and 10+ mechs in addition to a huge Red Air Force would scare any Axis player.

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by rkr1958 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:25 pm

All, I thought I'd post this discussion between Leonard and me on Spanish activation as I think others considering or facing a similar strategy as Leonard's might find it useful.
Leonard wrote:I am confused again…….because I have expected Spain to be activated on the Axis side sometime over the last two turns when I completed the capture Casablanca, in addition to the fact that the Axis had rejected the French Armistice and it "controlled" Tunis, Algeria, Oran, Casablanca, Rome and Paris…….just to make sure of things, I destroyed all units 'near' Casablanca and made sure I had an Axis unit physically sitting on all the aforementioned cities…….still no activation of Spain, what have I done wrong ?
Ronnie wrote:Spain will only activate for the axis prior to US entry. It was a change made in GSv2.01.13. Here's the check:
if (casablancaAxis && oranAxis && algiersAxis && tunisAxis && romeAxis && parisAxis && !country[Global.USA].getAtWar()) // GS v2.01.13
For Turkey to join the axis must control: Athens, Bucharest, Sofia, Moscow, Baku and Baghdad.
This prompted me to post this thread: viewtopic.php?p=334724#p334724
Leonard wrote:OK……I will just have to accept the current situation (in our existing game) as it is…….after all you were exceedingly gracious enough to allow a replay resulting from my poor understanding of how to do a Naval Blockade and my over estimated importance of dominating Malta instead of blockading the Gibraltar entrance to the Med (as the best way to sure up my Med / Nth Africa supply issues).

However, I would like to point out that my overall strategy was based on the Brochure that described how Spain could be activated (clearly the brochure needs to be re-written). I can sort of imagine the discussion (that I did not see) that must have gone on regarding the code change to v2.01.13 resulting in the current Spanish activation requirements and can see in my mind's eye the logic of US entry influencing Franco. I could posture an argument suggesting that an Axis domination of French North Africa (indeed all of the Med) and large forces of the US being decimated by the Axis followed by a swift exit of the US (and indeed the UK) from the theatre might sway Franco back towards the Axis.

All of this is moot for our current game, but I believe our game's Med / North Africa supply and Spanish activation rules need to be revisited……..at some future date. :)
Ronnie wrote:To be honest I don't recall the discussion and the rationale for the change. Though, I do know that we want the conditions for activation to be a deterministic set of conditions and not based on any random draw. Honestly we don't know what would have happened with respect to Spain if Germany had gone after North Africa. And with respect to the Brochures, I suspect they haven't been update to reflect all the changes in GSv2.10. Remember; this version hasn't been officially released.

Balancing the game is a difficult task and one which I think we've done a darn good job on. With respect to alternate game strategies; while we want them to have appeal and produce a reasonable chance for the axis to win, we don't want them to be so effective that one becomes the norm over the historical strategy. This is not to say we will tweak one counter to the historical record to accomplish this. We won't; but when a call has to be made we'll make it in consideration of all this. We do know that France fell in 6 weeks and Spain stayed neutral. We do know that Russia in 1941 looked on the verge of collapse and Turkey stayed neutral. We don't know, and probably never will, what set of events would have prompted them to enter on the side of the axis or the allies. So we had to make a call; but that call wasn't made in an academic setting; but in the context of extensive play testing. This is the first game that I've been involved in as either the allies or axis in which the French armistice was rejected. So, in truth, this call (actually calls wrt/Spain and Turkey) was heavily influenced by those would were probably on the business end of such strategies. Again, we want to make "Close the Med" a viable strategy; but one that involved great risk and required great skill to pull off so as not to make it the preferred strategy.

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:56 pm

This is what I wrote as a reply to them

Franco was an opportunist. He didn’t want to join the Axis to help Hitler get world dominance. Franco wanted to get Gibraltar and French Morocco. So in order for Spain to get what they want the Axis player must control French North West Africa so Spain can actually get the territory. UK needed to be so battered so Franco knew that they couldn’t defend Gibraltar.

We also know that Franco completely lost interest in joining the Axis when Hitler accepted the French Armistice and Vichy France was created. That meant French Morocco became a neutral power (part of
Vichy) and outside Hitler’s reach to give to Franco. By rejecting the French Armistice offer the Germans send a signal they want to fight France also in the colonies. That’s why this is a requisite for Spain joining the Axis.

There was actually a meeting between Hitler and Franco after the fall of France where Hitler wanted to Spain to join the Axis. Hitler gave up the idea because Franco made so unrealistic demands for it to
happen. Franco probably knew that he could remain neutral without alienating Germany by demanding too much. So Spain wanted neutrality in 1940.

We also know that Spain kept an eye on USA. Since Spain is bordering the Atlantic Ocean it means that Spain could be in the first line of an Allied invasion if USA joined the Allies. So Spain would be very reluctant to join the Axis against USA. Therefore USA not being activated is a requisite for Spain joining the Axis.

Game wise I think this is good too because it means going after French North Africa as the Axis is a possible strategy, but not necessarily a game winning one. You can do it, but you need to be fast enough to get
the job done before USA joins the Allies. It should be enough time if France falls in May / June 1940, but only if you start the invasion of French North Africa soon after. If you go for Sealion or Egypt/Iraq instead
then you might not have the time.

I think this is accurate when it comes to Spain. Spain would not be as interested in joining the Axis if there was no action in French North Africa and the Germans instead pushed eastwards. Again, Franco
was an opportunist. He wanted territory and German high tech materials for joining the Axis.

Turkey, however, can join either side at any time. Turkey actually joined the Allies a few months before the end of the war.

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by joerock22 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:55 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:We also know that Franco completely lost interest in joining the Axis when Hitler accepted the French Armistice and Vichy France was created. That meant French Morocco became a neutral power (part of Vichy) and outside Hitler’s reach to give to Franco. By rejecting the French Armistice offer the Germans send a signal they want to fight France also in the colonies. That’s why this is a requisite for Spain joining the Axis.
I agree with everything you wrote. This paragraph got me thinking though. What if the Axis accept the French armistice, but then invade Vichy France before the USA joins the war. I could see this happening when the Axis player wants to try Sea Lion, but is then defeated or reconsiders. Then the Axis player might be tempted to move on to Plan B and conquer southern France and French Morocco, especially if he can get Spain to join. It seems to me that in this very specific circumstance, Franco's territorial demands could be satisfied despite the fact that the French armistice was accepted. Of course, all the required African cities would still have to be captured before the USA joined the war, or Franco would remain neutral at any rate.

Is it worthwhile to program an exception to deal with this circumstance? I do worry about players using the gamey strategy of accepting the armistice, then immediately invading Vichy France. This would destroy the existing French units while not affecting the defensive capability of the garrisons in southern France and French North Africa. So perhaps the benefits of this change would be outweighed by the negative side effects.

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by rkr1958 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:34 am

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Diplomaticus
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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Diplomaticus » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:25 am

joerock22 wrote:Is it worthwhile to program an exception to deal with this circumstance? I do worry about players using the gamey strategy of accepting the armistice, then immediately invading Vichy France. This would destroy the existing French units while not affecting the defensive capability of the garrisons in southern France and French North Africa. So perhaps the benefits of this change would be outweighed by the negative side effects.
If you accept the Armistice and then immediately attack Vichy France, wouldn't that bring DeGaulle and the Free French into the game immediately?

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by richardsd » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:17 pm

Diplomaticus wrote:
joerock22 wrote:Is it worthwhile to program an exception to deal with this circumstance? I do worry about players using the gamey strategy of accepting the armistice, then immediately invading Vichy France. This would destroy the existing French units while not affecting the defensive capability of the garrisons in southern France and French North Africa. So perhaps the benefits of this change would be outweighed by the negative side effects.
If you accept the Armistice and then immediately attack Vichy France, wouldn't that bring DeGaulle and the Free French into the game immediately?
but would they not be a tiny force marooned in England?

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Diplomaticus » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:25 pm

richardsd wrote:but would they not be a tiny force marooned in England?

What I mean is, unless I'm mistaken, if Axis DoW-ed Vichy in 1940, then Vichy becomes 'activated,' and according to the manual, when Vichy is activated the Free French armies appear in Agadir: 2 corps, a mech, and a panzer, plus two very good leaders. Is that right, or do the Free French have to wait for USA to enter the war?

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Schnurri » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:20 pm

Diplomaticus wrote:
richardsd wrote:but would they not be a tiny force marooned in England?

What I mean is, unless I'm mistaken, if Axis DoW-ed Vichy in 1940, then Vichy becomes 'activated,' and according to the manual, when Vichy is activated the Free French armies appear in Agadir: 2 corps, a mech, and a panzer, plus two very good leaders. Is that right, or do the Free French have to wait for USA to enter the war?
What I've seen happen is the Free French appear but are unable to move or do anything until the US enters.

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by richardsd » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:18 pm

thats what I see to

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by rkr1958 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:58 am

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Correction: in the cap above I meant to say that Agadir falls! It certainly didn't how. :(

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:18 pm

The Axis will get a nasty surprise when the Free French arrive near Agadir soon. They make a successful invasion and liberate the city. Axis units already in the invasion hexes will be sent to the force pool if I recall correctly.

I can't see how the Axis can survive this now. Russian tanks already at Warsaw having broken through the Axis defense line. There simply aren't enough Axis units in the area to form a new defense line. Your tanks can now go hunting after German air units.

I think it's too late for the Germans to save this game even if they send home all units they have in North Africa / Iraq. They won't show up early enough and newly built units can't plug holes in the defense line.

The Axis player made a huge mistake of putting too much effort in North Africa and Iraq and not having enough land units to hold a defense line against Russia. Air units are nice on the offensive, but they can't hold a line. Germany simply has too few corps units.

I think the German offensive could have worked out better if they had focused only on Egypt / Iraq and not also French North Africa. If the invasion of Egypt had been combined with a 1941 Sealion then things could have looked different.

One learns from failed strategies and next time I'm sure the Axis will do better. This strategy certainly has some merit as Ncali is showing against Richardds.

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by rkr1958 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:10 pm

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In slide 170 (above) I used the term fighter sweep. I thought I'd describe what that tactic is for those who are unfamiliar with it. My fighters in England do NOT have the range to reach the Ruhr. This means that my strategic bombers have to fly there unescorted and are; thus subjected to intercept by axis fighters. However; if these fighters are in range of say Arhem then I can make them intercept prior to the attack on the Ruhr by attacking Arhem with my fighters. This is what I did and what I mean by a fighter sweep. I attacked Arhem with an RAF fighter which provide an intercept by a German fighter. I then attacked it a second time with a fighter which drew no response. My 2 strategic bombers then were able to go in unmolested. Now a simple counter to this is to base the German fighter in range of the Ruhr but out of range of Arhem. However, don't tell my opponent this. :D

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Cybvep » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:07 pm

If you keep up the pressure, you have a chance for the Ultimate Victory :D

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Kuz » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:53 pm

Mr. RKR1958 said "I don't understand the Axis decision to stand and fight." The answer is because running at this point means they just die tired. :)

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Re: Clash of the Mortals -- For Allied Eyes Only

Post by Crazygunner1 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:09 am

This is a perfect example of Axis "fiddling" around too much before 42 Barbarossa. Germany is like a "hunter, facing two tigers and only one bullet in his rifle". You simply have to go head to head with one of them in order to have a chance in the game.

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